on the rocks

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2013 11:13AM by Ras_Adam.

Rebolution and Matisyahu billed above Yellowman and Inner Circle...I'm definitely getting older.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2013 03:19PM by J_72.

This keeps up and they'll have to start billing it as "REGGAE" ON THE ROCKS.

Hey Jeff, I'm sure I'll be napping thru Matis!! The teenage girls screaming for Rebelution will wake me up.
King Yellowman should be headlining. He killed Red Rocks last time jumping around in the rain!

Zunguzung.....................

Wow, the disrespect doesn't even surprise me anymore...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2013 12:13AM by Pale Ryder.

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Stamina!
This keeps up and they'll have to start billing it as "REGGAE" ON THE ROCKS.

Or, here's an alternative. Get rid of all these "reggae" acts (Reb, matis). Then, They could have- reggae on "the rocks" - "the rocks" being a small venue, not the famous red rocks.

Times are definitely changing, and maybe it is kind of sad for reggae purists or the state of "original Jamaican reggae" . But if you are going to say that it's disrespectful, then you don't really understand how a festival like this is billed.

El abayarde, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one, especially on here, get used to it...

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el abayarde

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Stamina!
This keeps up and they'll have to start billing it as "REGGAE" ON THE ROCKS.

Or, here's an alternative. Get rid of all these "reggae" acts (Reb, matis). Then, They could have- reggae on "the rocks" - "the rocks" being a small venue, not the famous red rocks.

Times are definitely changing, and maybe it is kind of sad for reggae purists or the state of "original Jamaican reggae" . But if you are going to say that it's disrespectful, then you don't really understand how a festival like this is billed.

Get rid of those acts? But...but they're the $#!t!!! All the kids who wanna party down say so!
Seriously, even SNWMF every year books an act or two like Rebelution, SOJA etc. They know which side their bread is buttered on. I have no problem with that because I know it helps bring in the $$ so they can afford the foundation reggae artists I happen to love. I like the fact that the California Roots Festival nowhere mentions the word 'reggae' in their ads or posters, even though the vast majority of acts they book at least CLAIM to be reggae bands or artists. However, to call a jam-band-backed rap act like Matisyahu 'reggae' is stretching it imho ('it' being my credulousness).

Interesting you mentioned California roots festival- as I've always noticed that they don't use "reggae" as well. And does snwmf use the word reggae? Maybe I'm wrong but they always advertise as a world music fest- which is interesting, because it is primarily a reggae fest, with a few reggae inspired (?) and "world music" acts. Then it make me wonder what is "California roots"? Roots like folk? Or like these bands have roots in Cali? Really when it boils down to it, it's just a name to a festival. You check the lineup, you either like the acts or you don't. I mean what the hell is a bonaroo? Or wakarusa? How many times do reggae acts play at jazz festivals? Seems like that has happened a lot in history, especially among older Jamaican acts. I think diversity is cool and helps each side gain new fans.
Or you check the lineup, like pale ryder, and think that the order of it is based on someone's opinion, and then derive that somehow it is a form of disrespect- when its actually an agreement between 2 parties (normally not the band themselves but managers and booking agents) based on ticket sales/draw/amount of money going to artist. You can call it an opinion if you want but really it's a break down of numbers- so there is a formula that is more fact based (for example - Rebelution draws more than yellowman, or probably any of the artists below their name)) and therefore their manager/agent and the promoter agreed to put their name at the top. That's it.
As I said before, you can call it an opinion, or think its disrespectful- but that would just illustrate you don't understand how billing works. I think what you meant to say is "I hate Rebelution and Matisyahu, I think yellowman and inner circle are way better". Or something to that effect. Now that would be an opinion, asshole. (Just kidding about the asshole part).
I think a lot of people on this forum would agree with you. But you can't neglect the business aspect of this matter. That goes back to my original point, cut out the top 2 artists on this bill, and you can probably cut out red rocks too. A decade or more ago things were way different, and maybe it is kind of sad that the state of "pure traditional reggae" is not doing the numbers it used to. You can call it disrespectful. Or you could look at it like, thanks to these top 2 acts on here I'm able to see yellowman at the beautiful red rocks as opposed to a shitty bar in Denver for a small unpacked room.
This topic has been discussed on here a lot. I wish there were more new reggae acts out of Jamaica, but unfortunately that seems to be a thing of the past. For better or worse, it's evolution.

Like I said before, the disrespect doesn't even surprise me anymore. You have way too much time on your hands, I write reports like you just wrote for a living, albeit much more eloquently, so I don't type more than a few sentences unless I am on the clock. El Abayarde, you have spread your so-called understanding to no one, and are simply regurgitating what Stamina has already stated, while showing your passive aggressive tendencies to all on this board. Oh thank goodness for Internet anonymity.

my original post had some "son way back in my day this fest was headlined by Jamaican artists" type line, but
i deleted it. i was thinking about it in other genres; fans of oldschool blues prob can't see why joe bonamassa is headlining or if you look at our local jazzfest sometimes you ask where's the jazz? when you read the headliners. it may be age that makes me prefer the original to the 6 degrees of ____ via sublime bands. or it's just personal taste. i know people in highschool who prefer old school. but i agree with the post about promoters and the botton line. so if the carbon is the draw top billing they get. ok back to my rocking chair to talk about in how many feet of snow & how many miles i had to walk to school in my day ; )
a

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Like I said before, the disrespect doesn't even surprise me anymore. You have way too much time on your hands, I write reports like you just wrote for a living, albeit much more eloquently, so I don't type more than a few sentences unless I am on the clock. El Abayarde, you have spread your so-called understanding to no one, and are simply regurgitating what Stamina has already stated, while showing your passive aggressive tendencies to all on this board. Oh thank goodness for Internet anonymity.

heyooo!!! look at the big brain on pale ryder everyone!! he writes eloquent reports for a living, and uses words like regurgitate and passive-aggressive.... But it sure is surprising pale ryder cant seem to wrap his head around the fact that the music business is about money. it doesn't run on jah love. you can continue to call bands like rebelution, soja, and groundation "disrespectful" til you are blue in the face, but you will sound like a whiny fool while you do it.

treez your reading comprehension needs an upgrade. Where did pale call those bands disrespectful? I have to believe he's referring to the promoters and to some extent, the fans. The promoters are the people who decide the artist billing, rarely if ever the artists themselves. They do so based on their calculations of which artists the fans are going to want to see the most. If anyone's to blame in this scenario (hopefully that's not too big a word), it's longtimers like myself who have failed to pass the love of the foundation roots on to the next generations and haven't educated them on what to listen for, in terms of the ingredients that constitute good music and great reggae. So y'all can lay into me, not pale, if you want to either blame someone for the present shituation or for being an elitist because I'm not too keen on the fact that artists like Sly & Robbie and Don Carlos have to open for the likes of Pepper or SOJA. As you can tell I'm not crazy about the music of the bulk of the US reggae bands, but I have to give Groundation a lot of respect for showcasing foundation artists like the Congos and Apple Gabriel both live and on record, and being active in keeping their works alive and current.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2013 03:50PM by Stamina!.

Reggae is a dying genre; the majority of reggae artists from the Golden Era have passed on, and half of the artists from the current generation are either in prison or on parole. What's left when the handful of veterans which are represented at these festivals pass on? Probably Tarrus Riley, the Marley family, and a whole heap of wack digital riddims.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2013 03:38PM by Chimino.

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The promoters are the people who decide the artist billing, rarely if ever the artists themselves.

2 of this year's artists insisted on billing placement as a 'condition' in their contract. If you look at this year's poster, it's pretty easy to determine who those 2 are....

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treez your reading comprehension needs an upgrade. Where did pale call those bands disrespectful? I have to believe he's referring to the promoters and to some extent, the fans. The promoters are the people who decide the artist billing, rarely if ever the artists themselves.

Ok Stamina, since your reading skills allow you to put words in Pale Ryder's mouth, allow me to correct myself. Pale can continue to call promoters and fans of these bands disrespectful til he's blue in the face...but then he will sound like even more of a fool.

Bands have some say in the matter if they want to, but why should they intervene to put Yellowman top bill? He's not selling the tickets!!!!!!! And it's very admirable that you cast the blame on yourself, maybe you should start the bleeding heart reggae non-profit to promote the revitalization of nuff foundation artist, hell, i'd probably contribute.

And allow me to say, I'm a bigger Yellowman fan than most. I highly "rank" King Yellow. And if it were purely based on my opinion, I would have him headline this show. But what you, and I, or Pale Ryder think doesn't matter.

I'm sure you are correct Daniel. In 2004 or 05 Matis pitched a sh!t fit at Red Rocks that he couldn't perform while the sun was out?
First time performing at Reggae on the Rocks and a total rookie! The result was Joseph Hill and Culture ended up w/ a 3:30pm time slot
and Majek Fashek bumped to headliner. Joke thing for sure. Only good thing was Joseph sang in beautiful sunshine and blue skies.
Shortly after his set it rained hard the rest of the night. Only the die hards stayed for Majek!

Peace Love and Harmony

El Abayarde wrote They could have- reggae on "the rocks" - "the rocks" being a small venue, not the famous red rocks

--Or.. they could say Reggae On the Rocks at "red rocks" -"red rocks" being the now-corporate like- atmosphere with Coors lite banners flying everywhere and only bratwursts available to eat and a cheesy giftshop expansion, a change from 1998 and previous when vending booths lined both stairways of the amphitheatre all the way up to the concourse and around. What once was an Irie vibe in a venue perfect for reggae is now just another date on the extensive 'red rocks' summer schedule. My opinion could be construed as 'good old days' syndrome but facts are facts, Red Rocks just doesn't have as good of a vibe for reggae anymore.

and Pale Ryder was referring to a peception of disrespect (here on this board) for bands like Soja and Rebelution...I think? I had a neighbor (who happens to Jewish) and lives here in Houston, fly all the way to Denver to catch Matisyahu back in 2006 I think it was. My neighbor was about 25 at the time, knew nothing about reggae, and we'd have talks at my backyard gate about things and he always had a strong opinion that our governemnt and military should have no qualms about torturing people to get information-Muslim or whoever it might be. And I realized 'here before me stands a Matisyahu fan'... Pathetic

But I say... Some Never Even Plant yet want to Reap,
If you run, be careful, try to look before you leap;
Took a little walk from my Vineyard...
Now I'm on my own
Now I'm left alone..

Yes Daniel, artists with a lot of clout and drawing power can indeed specify where on the billing they are placed, but most cannot. I'm assuming one of the acts who had that ability was the Marley Family Singers...
Treez I agree with your last paragraph. But...I never denied the fiscal reality of the situation, in fact I acknowledged it in my post, and Pale tried to bring that to your attention. I'm not sure why calling people "whiny fools" and "bleeding hearts" on a message board is more important than those little details. All I'll say about this matter is that I understand the demographic forces that drive the booking policies of these festivals, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or accept that this is how it will always be. All I can do is to try to educate the people I come into contact with, and also live up to the old proverb "if you don't like the music you hear, then go make some of your own," two activities in which I'm currently active.
papaken, my friends in CO confirm your description of Reggae on the Rocks and what it's become. Also, as a Jew I know plenty of both Jewish and non-Jewish Matis fans, and precious few of them share your homeboy's politiricks. So please don't make this guy typical of Matisyahu's fans...or Jews in general. Thanks and respect.

I know ur heritage there Stamina daddy, and I'm certainly not trying to typify at all, it's just a story about a former neighbor. Heck, there are few Irish american buddies of mine who went to see Flogging Molly here in Houston just because the lead singer is Irish- they didn't know anything about their music other than the fact that Dave King is from Ireland. Not that you have to know anything about a band to check them-just sayin'.

But I say... Some Never Even Plant yet want to Reap,
If you run, be careful, try to look before you leap;
Took a little walk from my Vineyard...
Now I'm on my own
Now I'm left alone..

I actually enjoyed stamina's : "reggae" on the rocks thing. So to show another angle of it I came up with : reggae on "the rocks".
Pale Ryder was the one who used the word "disrespect" - and again I still don't see who/what he was saying is disrespectful. An artist? A manager? A flyer? A promoter? A festival? That was my whole issue with the word disrespect.
Many of you are saying the promoter picks the billing. Or the artist picks the billing. I don't think either of those statements are correct. Sure there are exceptions. But I would say, as I did earlier, that that is normally something negotiated between an artists management/booking agent and the person/people booking the festival. So in that case, who is pale Ryder saying is being disrespectful? Or is he just saying, as is the general consensus here, that Reb and matis suck, aren't reggae, and should never be billed above yellow and inner circle? That would be an opinion. (And you didn't have to tell me what an opinion is I already knew)
Papaken sounds like you just met an ignorant person, who happens to be a matis fan. And sure, red rocks, just like the reggae scene itself, was much different back in the day. Like it or not, it's a reality.

Semantics, schemantics - who cares what they call it? The lineup is less than stellar, nuff said

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In 2004 or 05 Matis pitched a sh!t fit at Red Rocks that he couldn't perform while the sun was out?

Wait, let me guess: The Red Rocks concert you were referring to was held on a Saturday.....?

That would be understandable given that Matis was practicing Hasidism at that time which forbids a performance prior to sundown on the Sabbath.

So, what you've given us LivelyUp is NOT an example of an artist who fails to pay respect to those that came before him in the musical field, but rather an example of an artist who was abiding by his religious beliefs (or at least the ones he held at that time). A similar accommodation was given to Queen Makedah at SNWMF in 2010, which resulted in her performing on Sunday instead of Sattaday that year.....

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Treez I agree with your last paragraph. But...I never denied the fiscal reality of the situation, in fact I acknowledged it in my post, and Pale tried to bring that to your attention. I'm not sure why calling people "whiny fools" and "bleeding hearts" on a message board is more important than those little details.

Stamina,

I'll tell you why, because lately - on this and other threads - I am hearing a lot of hating going on. Some of which has gone beyond the simple "i dont like this band or that band because of blah blah blah" which is fine. But when it comes to personal attacks; calling certain bands "arrogant" and "disrespectful" because of some nonsensical reason or some piece of gossip someone may have heard, there's going to be some insults lobbed back in return. I know this hasn't come from you personally, but you did question my reading comprehension ; )

As it has probably become obvious at this point, I have a friendly and family relationship with folks in soja, and as people, I know them to be very cool and down-to-earth. And they have a wealth of deep knowledge of the rastafari movement, and reggae music history past to present. They also have worked extremely hard to get where they have gotten,. which I assure you has not been easy for an all white reggae band starting out in DC, and yes, their music less and less fits the mold of "foundation" reggae that both you and I love. Instead, they've honed in on a style very much their own, which I think should earn respect rather than criticism.

I also see this criticism coming a lot more from the white community. I'd be willing to bet Yellowman is excited to play in front of a large crowd at red rocks, I am certain Don Carlos appreciates bands like Slightly Stupid cross-marketing him and giving a boost to his career. same goes for Cedric Myton with Groundation. SOJA put out a riddim album w sister carol, junior kelly, ras attitude and many others that helped those artists get their name out.

anyway, check this interview out if you have a chance.... i watched it a while ago but i think it touches on a lot of these issues...

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Last year I invited my Jazz-loving, Midwest-dwelling father to come out and attend the Monterey Jazz Fest with me. We've talked about it for decades, but have never gotten it together. So when I finally cleared my schedule for a proper festival experience and offered to score the tickets, I was shocked by what he said.
"Eh, why bother? At this point all the musicians I like are dead," was his response. "And most of those reggae guys you like are going that way, too."

Touche, old man. Too true.

And let's be honest. A whole lot of original ska, rock-steady and roots reggae performers just don't have the chops or voice any more to attract new fans, or even hold the attention of the greying minority that still supports roots reggae (Yellowman, respect due, is sadly included in this group). Combine that with sloppy, unrehearsed backup bands, and you've all but written the eulogy for reggae's funeral with the popular masses.

Good for the youths making headway in the music biz. Gwan, do your thing. So much music and so many people to enjoy it all. Such as it ever was.

Thanks Daniel for the heads up on the practice of the Sabbath. Learn something new everyday.
Just not a fan of the artist.

I appreciate an actual question rather than an insult. In my opinion that constitutes a certain degree of maturity that I believe is often lacking on this board, so thank you. I understand the whole billing and lineup process, this is not an instance of me not understanding the whole supply and demand issue. What I am referring to is the general lack of respect for foundation artists at most festivals regarding their place in the lineup regardless of who chooses the lineup. Why does that ruffle so many feathers? Should I simply just think that many of the foundation or old school artists should be happy to get whatever spot that they end up with? What is wrong with the notion that they should get a better spot on the lineup because of who they are and what they did for the music. Yes, it is all about the money nowadays, but does that make it the right thing to do? The thought police can now come and haul me off. IDGAF, that is a new one, figure it out.

and Treez, who mentioned SOJA, I certainly did not. Why you wanna hang me out to dry? I saw their first performance at SNWMF back at Angels Camp and was impressed

Pale Ryder, you told me opinions are like assholes, everyone has em, and get used to it. Funny, you tell me to get used to it, when I registered on this message board 43 years ago so I am used to it.
Maybe I came at you sarcastic...my b. But that should be ok, because YDGAF, right? For real though funny you talk about insults. You definitely tried to insult me. Didn't ruffle feathers, just evoked thought and discussion, that's what this whole thing is about.
You finally expressed your opinion and it is more clear now. And it is called the music business. True, some of these foundation artists can be bitter, bitch about it, and nobody will book them, because unfortunately they don't draw in the BUSINESS like they used to. Or, follow the likes of don Carlos or inner circle, and embrace the evolution and make the best it. Unfortunately, respect doesn't sell the tickets or pay the artists.
It is crazy, but that is evolution. For the record I thought SOJA wasn't that impressive back then, but you know opinions, everyone's got em.
Times are changing. Good talk guys. Zungazungzungazngazeng

was it really 43 years ago al gore invented this phorum ?

Funny, I like your sense of humor. You must be the most senior member on here! I am obviously not in the music business and do not claim to know the innards of it, just an observation that a lowly reggae music enthusiast has made. I came off a bit strong, so I guess action=reaction. Thank Al Gore for the interwebs, and I guess I do GAF after all. Hill and Gully Rider, Hill and Gully...

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Ras_Adam
was it really 43 years ago al gore invented this phorum ?

43 years ago in the Unix world is considered the epoch. or the start of time - 0 seconds.. .and since this site is hosted from a Unix-ish machine, it makes sense that a misconfigured(at least at install time) database or forum software would report start of time as 1 January 1970.


bash-2.03$ curl -o /dev/null -v www.snwmf.com

* Connected to www.snwmf.com (72.8.150.77) port 80 (#0)
> GET / HTTP/1.1
> User-Agent: Mozilla
> Host: www.snwmf.com
> Accept: */*
>
< HTTP/1.1 200 OK
< Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2013 13:19:39 GMT
< Server: Apache/2.2.17 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.17 OpenSSL/0.9.8e-fips-rhel5 mod_auth_passthrough/2.1 mod_bwlimited/1.4 FrontPage/5.0.2.2635
< Last-Modified: Tue, 02 Jul 2013 18:27:43 GMT
< ETag: "1f18081-5245-4e08b8036e5c0"
< Accept-Ranges: bytes
< Content-Length: 21061
< Content-Type: text/html