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California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds

Posted by Collie4Nyah 
California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 25, 2013 08:53PM
Quote

SANTA ROSA, California (Reuters) - No more than 10 seconds elapsed from the time sheriff's deputies spotted a 13-year-old California boy carrying what they thought was an assault rifle and the moment they shot him dead, only to learn afterward the gun was a plastic replica, police said on Thursday.

It took 16 seconds more for the two officers to call for medical assistance, according to the time line of events released by police investigating Tuesday's shooting in Santa Rosa, a suburb in northern California's wine country.

Andy Lopez Cruz, wearing a hooded sweatshirt, had been on his way to a friend's house clutching the imitation gun designed to shoot plastic pellets, police said. He died at the scene. A toy handgun also was found tucked in his pants.

An autopsy performed on Thursday found seven bullets struck the boy, and that two of the wounds were fatal. Investigators believe a total of eight rounds were fired by one of the two deputies who confronted the youth.

The officers involved in the shooting, two deputies of the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department, have been placed on administrative leave, and the incident was under investigation by the Santa Rosa Police Department and other law enforcement agencies.

But the tragedy has reignited calls in the community for creation of civilian review boards to examine such incidents.

"People have to do something," said Elbert Howard, a founding member of the Police Accountability Clinic and Helpline of Sonoma County. "He's a child, and he had a toy. I see that as an overreaction to shoot him down."

An advisory panel of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission urged Sonoma County to create civilian-review boards in 2000 following eight fatal officer-involved shootings in less than three years, but that recommendation went unheeded.

As many as 200 mourners gathered on Thursday around a makeshift memorial consisting of flowers, balloons, teddy bears and pictures of the boy at the site of the shooting.

Some held candles and signs that said: "What a tragedy, what a travesty."

Friends and family have described the boy as a well-liked eighth-grader who played the trumpet and basketball and had a good sense of humor.

Police Lieutenant Paul Henry issued a brief chronology of the killing that showed the shooting unfolded swiftly following an alert about a suspicious person in the area.

Four seconds later, the two officers radioed for assistance from other deputies. Then six seconds more passed before they notified dispatchers that shots had been fired. Police have previously said the deputies called for backup as soon as they noticed what appeared to be the military-style rifle.

According to that account, one of the deputies opened fire after the boy was twice ordered to put the gun down and instead turned toward the officers as the barrel of the weapon rose in their direction.

Police also have said the deputy who opened fire could not tell from the angle of his position that he was shooting at a child, but saw the gun and feared for his life.

The sheriff's department has refused to identify the deputies involved. Their lawyer has declined to comment.

"We want justice," the boy's father, Rodrigo Lopez, said during a silent vigil in front of Santa Rosa City Hall on Wednesday. "I don't want the same thing to happen to other families."

California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 25, 2013 08:54PM
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 25, 2013 10:25PM
I remember as a young kid my grandfather made me spray paint my cap guns and squirt guns bright colors so they didn't look so real. When I asked him why he told me " some jumpy and trigger happy cop might shoot your ass thinking your walking down the street carrying a real gun". I thought he was completley over reacting. As I've grown in age and experience it turns out old grandad was spot on about a lot of things.....
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 25, 2013 10:33PM
I'm sick of these nazi ill trained cops dispatching multiple rounds at people when one shot would take out that thirteen year old. What horrible cowards at best, and murderers at worst. You can be sure that their fellow officers will lie and try to protect their own, and since the child is dead there is no one to speak for him. Every cop in the state needs to have a video camera around his neck that is turned on at the beginning of his shift and turned off at the end.

I've heard over and over that cops are trained that if they feel they have to shoot someone they try and kill them. F*&^ that. Those cops murdered that 13 year old for no reason, they should be in jail.

Love that reggae!
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 25, 2013 11:44PM
Well, unfortunately we live in a society where it's very possible for a 13-year-old to get his hands on an assault rifle and kill dozens of people before he's done..it's already happened several times this year. Blame who you will, but it's unfortunate no one was there to stop him from walking out the house with that thing strapped around him.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 26, 2013 09:51PM
Quote
Chimino
Well, unfortunately we live in a society where it's very possible for a 13-year-old to get his hands on an assault rifle and kill dozens of people before he's done..it's already happened several times this year. Blame who you will, but it's unfortunate no one was there to stop him from walking out the house with that thing strapped around him.

So it's the kids fault?!! Are you @#$%& kidding me?!?! No wait, its the parents fault. That's what you are saying. The 13 year old's parents should have not let their boy play with his toys in the street.

You know what?.... This is making me Ill, I can only hope that your post was not thought out and that you don't actually blame anyone other than the cop who pulled the trigger for this sensless tragedy. Yes, yes, in fact I know thats what you meant and im going to turn off my computer now and rock myself until I believe it.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 27, 2013 05:35PM
Murderers !!! Blood upon your shoulders!!
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 28, 2013 03:20PM
drop your gun (fake or not) when the cops tell you to. is this board your only source of news? Haven't you seen all the young kids shooting and stabbing people lately? 14 year old kills (and then hides) a teacher in Massachusets....13 year old shoots teacher...these are just in the last week. How are the cops supposed to know this 13 year old knucklehead wasn't on his way to shoot up his school?
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 28, 2013 04:59PM
Thats their @#$%& job Mulligan. Im not saying its an easy job but thats the job, protect and serve. Even the kids in hoodies with plastic guns. A lot of middle aged dudes commit a grip of malfeasence and I dont see any one gunning them down with support from the public. And just cause you got it twisted, dont think I do, you have just shown your support for the cop in question and have defended his actions. You sir disgust me.

Edit: OK, a little over the top, and to be honest I dont even know you. But to be clear your post is offensive and it does indeed disgust me. I hope, like the other poster, you too did not take then time to think out your post, I honestly hope that you don't really feel the way your post implies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2013 05:04PM by Christopher.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 28, 2013 05:04PM
I gotta be with Christopher on this one. You fire that gun you better be right about what you are shooting at. The cop emptied his gun at the child who had not fired a shot. If it's legal for the kid to have the toy, the cop is guilty of manslaughter at least.

Love that reggae!
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 28, 2013 05:32PM
the cops "@#$%& job" is to make sure the streets are safe for us law-abiding citizens. I I was carrying a play gun, a real gun, a
broom or a shovel and the cops told me to drop it - i would drop it. 13 year old kid ignores cops demands to drop the gun, he even
ignored Ismael Mondragon ( [www.cnn.com] ). And I can't find the orginal
article that mentions witnesses said the cops blew their siren/beeper thing (which he also ignored) before ordering him to drop the gun.

Nothing is "twisted" in my post....it's your mind that is twisted by thinking its OK to ignore cops when they are talking to you.

I certainly hope you or any of your loved ones don't get shot up by some darling 13 year old who is just so misunderstood.

nomo - the question is not whether its legal or not for the kid to have a toy gun...the question is why would he ignore orders/warnings
from the cops? The cops don't know if its a toy or not.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 28, 2013 05:53PM
Mulligan.. the mistake you are making is ascribing the abilities of an adult to a child. The person in question is a child. Children by definition are not adults, do not have the ability to behave as adults and are not given the reponsibilities of adults. Thats just the beginning, what if the child was deaf? Had an ear infection? Was confused? Was startled by aall the noise the cops were making? Why is it tgat all you bring up is that other children have committed atrocities so its ok to empty a full clip into them and ask those questions later.

But I think im preaching to a brick wall, I doubt you have the capacity.to understand my points or see past your own priviledge. It really is sad to see you blindly defend your position than to take a minute to re-think it. I couldn't care less about your personal evolution so theres little point in my trying to educate you. But I hope that maybe someone else reading this may take another look at their own thought process and come to the conclusion that what happened in tgis case is indefensible, unconcionable, and absolutely criminal.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 28, 2013 05:58PM
13 year olds know what they are doing....get real.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 28, 2013 06:19PM
I rest my case. Nuff said Mulligan.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 28, 2013 09:38PM
Even a 13 year old is smart enough to know walking down a street with gun replicas, particularly an automatic, isn't the smartest thing to do given the mass shooting at the hands of teenagers lately. At the last school shooting the teacher tried to non-violently talk the kid down and got blown away.

Not defending the cops, just saying it is a very tragic incident that could have been avoided by both parties.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 28, 2013 10:14PM
Mulligan this all happened so quickly i'm not sure the kid even understood what he was being told. I know when someone initiates conversation with me, the first thing i say is 'What?' If he said that while holding the toy gun and swinging his body around, as one might do if some cop is yelling loudly, it could look to a fearful idiot with a gun as if he were taking action. What is inexcusable to me is pumping every bullet he had into the kid. That is an expression of fear, and if they are that afraid they should not have a weapon.

I hate guns. My kids have never had toy guns. I know that the way to treat all cops is to obey the idiot with the gun, but speak as little as possible. Don't answer questions, they are not there to help you in any case. None of that justifies what the cop did. Yes the realities of our gun addled country are nasty at times, and most of us have learned to avoid those situations that could lead to tragedy. I also noticed that it wasn't a little scrawny white kid.

Love that reggae!
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 01:49AM
Nomo... There is really no point in trying to reason with mulligan on this. He has been clear on his viewpoint and nothing Ny of us say here will sway him. And Jeff you are in the exact position to know how far away a 13 year old is from an adult. Granted people of all ages commit horrendous attrocities, however, it remains the job of our police officers (as mulligan so deftly put it.) To protect those of us who are law abiding citizens, even the hoodie wearing, brown skinned, 13 year old law abiding citizens, who scare the @#$%& out of middle aged old cooks and spend entirely too much time on those same cooks lawns... Yes mulligan I said it. That 13 year old law abiding citizen had every right that YOU do. By dumping his entire clup into the CHILD that cop violated that LAW ABIDING CITZENS RIGHTS. PERIOD.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 02:34AM
I agree with you both Christopher and Nomo. I also think that if someone is under the assumption that this was the kid's fault and the cops were just doing their job, there's no sense arguing with that person.....

It was a senseless MURDER of an innocent child. I hope the cop responsible for this goes to jail. It could have been my kid, or any of our kids.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 03:08AM
Amen Jolene. Amen.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 03:05PM
No one defending the sheriff deputy's actions realizes that only ONE sheriff deputy fired his weapon?
What made one cop so sure his life was in danger, while the other did not, seemingly, view the boy as an immediate threat?
8 shots in 10 seconds is excessive at the very least!
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 03:07PM
Quote
J_72
Even a 13 year old is smart enough to know walking down a street with gun replicas, particularly an automatic, isn't the smartest thing to do given the mass shooting at the hands of teenagers lately. At the last school shooting the teacher tried to non-violently talk the kid down and got blown away.

Not defending the cops, just saying it is a very tragic incident that could have been avoided by both parties.

Let me start off by stating that I HATE cops, yes HATE. Not loath, or dislike, I have an absolute blood boiling displeasure for the majority of law enforcement( I do realize that there are a few good eggs out there that do make a difference) and would love to see the majority lined up and have the @#$%& kicked out of them. I do however wholeheartedly agree with J72 on this. A little common sense goes a long way, and a little parental guidance goes even further. The "he was just a kid" argument is null and void in this day and age. these "just kids" are some of the most violent and dangerous people on the streets. I saw an 11 year old kid hold a grown man up at gunpoint a few weeks back in broad daylight on 98th and Est in East Oakland a few weeks back. The kid rode up on his bike, pulled in front of the man and pointed his gun at the mans chest, the man dropped his back pack, turned out his pockets and strated walking backwards, the kid picked up the backpack and pocket contents, and rode away through the park. I know the ones are reading this and are thinking this was an isolated incident, but don't be mistaken, @#$%& like this is more common than a lot of people want to accept or believe. Kids don't face adult reprocutions for their crimes and they know this. The majority of them think they are above the law or invincible.

That cop deserves to loose his job at the least and face other disciplinary action for the excessive force that was used. Lets just please not sit back and act like we don't have a responsibility as humans and parents to use some common friggen sense and to teach our kids not to put them selves in situations that could result badly for them. I knew better than to walk down the street carrying weapons in the open( or items that looked like weapons), and you can trust that my kids will know the same thing.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 03:11PM
Quote
Collie4Nyah
No one defending the sheriff deputy's actions realizes that only ONE sheriff deputy fired his weapon?
What made one cop so sure his life was in danger, while the other did not, seemingly, view the boy as an immediate threat?
8 shots in 10 seconds is excessive at the very least!

8 shots in 10 seconds is nothing really. Cops are taught to double tap.

On another note they are supposed to shot to subdue, not kill. What we have here are the actions of a coward.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 03:49PM
Well, the FBI is investigating the shooting now, so it is foolish to automatically side with the deputy sheriff....
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:00PM
Why does a side need to be chosen? Fact is that stupidity on both parties caused this. And because of stupidity both parties paid a hefty price.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:04PM
"FBI is investigating" big f-king deal. We all know how that is going to end up. No matter how outrageous a cop's behaviors/actions
are they will be found not culpable (see UC Davis pepper-spraying cop).....
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:09PM
My point was that it obviously isn't an open and shut case.
If it warrants further investigation, how are some so sure, without viewing any evidence, that the officer acted accordingly?
No, not about sides, it's about JUSTICE.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:21PM
I hear you east bay, and to be honest I never was allowed to play with guns of any type... My mom even took away my cap guns... (Remember those?) And I also get it that walking down the street in a hoodie with what looks like an assault weapon strapped over your shoulder and another fake hand gun tucked in your waist, down a street in known gang territory is a stupid idea, however east bay, it is not illegal. Stupid yes, illegal no.

I also hear you that children commit atrocities I get it, I have a teenaged daughter, you don't have to tell me that kids do stupid @#$%&. I am well aware, trust me. I am also well aware that it is against the law for an adult to beat the living day lights out of a bad ass little kid who just robbed some guy on the street. You (and I and the cops) cannot treat children like aduts, because they are not, as much as it seems like they "know what they are doing" they do not have the mental capacity that adults do. (well MOST adults, anyway)

I am not saying let 13 year olds do whatever they like simply because they are children. I am saying like mental patients children can be dangerous and unpredictable and MUST be handled that way, yes it makes a cops job more difficult, it makes a parents job more difficult, in fact it makes life more difficult for everyone who comes into contact with them. (Ask a public school teacher... ) Those of you out there who are defending this cop or even justifying his actions because of unrelated atrocities, ask yourself if you would be able to defend an 8th grade school teacher who brought a gun to his classroom and blew away the little bad asses in his class. Sure the streets would be safer. But we would all have that teacher strung up fasger than the 10 seconds that cop took to decide to end this 8th graders life.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:24PM
Justice huh? Lol, there is no such thing as justice in the world. Justice is an idea not a reality. Reprocutions for our decisions and actions is a truth, and like I said both parties paid and will pay a heavy price for their stupidity....
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:33PM
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east bay herbalist
there is no such thing as justice in the world.

And that is exactly what is wrong with the world....
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:35PM
What a stooopid example....
How's about if the 8th grade school teacher who brought a gun to his classroom and then blew away the little bad asses in his class
that all were armed with assault weapons? Definitely the streets would be safer..

How many 13 year olds who were doing something/anything and the police told them to halt or come here or whatever WERE NOT
shot lately because they did as they were told? I'm sure this happens very often but we never hear about it 'cuz the kid knows that
when the police talk - you listen.



(edit - remove line breaks)...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2013 04:45PM by mulligan.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:44PM
This incident is just another celebration of gun culture. Congratulations NRA, you killed another.

Love that reggae!
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:45PM
Hey Mulligan. This kid DID NOT HAVE AN ASSAULT WEAPON. He had a toy, and the cop emptied his clip into the boy and found out later that it was fake.. not a good look. It is not ok to "shoot first and ask questions later" since you seem to have trouble with the concept I suggest you stay indoors this halloween and dont answer your door either, cause the streets will be full of dangerous looking children and I would hate for you to take any of them out cause their bloody axes or vampire teeth "looked real" the facts are that the kid who is dead and the kids in my 8th grade analogy were both just being kids.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:49PM
Quote
Collie4Nyah
Quote
east bay herbalist
there is no such thing as justice in the world.

And that is exactly what is wrong with the world....
This is where we completly agree with one another.........
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:51PM
don't make any suggestions to me since they all seem to be ridiculous. Only AFTER THE FACT did the cops know it was a toy.
it DID NOT look like a toy. A precious 13 year old with a gun can kill just like you or me. i don't have any problem with "dangerous
looking children" - I do have a problem with those who think everything the cops do is wrong. perhaps you should stay indoors so you don't get shot up by some 13 year old with a gun.

again - you are using a stoopid example (maybe it's just your nature)....no one is getting shot 'cuz of vampire teeth or bloody axes.
Please try to stay real.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:56PM
Quote
Christopher
I hear you east bay, and to be honest I never was allowed to play with guns of any type... My mom even took away my cap guns... (Remember those?) And I also get it that walking down the street in a hoodie with what looks like an assault weapon strapped over your shoulder and another fake hand gun tucked in your waist, down a street in known gang territory is a stupid idea, however east bay, it is not illegal. Stupid yes, illegal no.

I also hear you that children commit atrocities I get it, I have a teenaged daughter, you don't have to tell me that kids do stupid @#$%&. I am well aware, trust me. I am also well aware that it is against the law for an adult to beat the living day lights out of a bad ass little kid who just robbed some guy on the street. You (and I and the cops) cannot treat children like aduts, because they are not, as much as it seems like they "know what they are doing" they do not have the mental capacity that adults do. (well MOST adults, anyway)

I am not saying let 13 year olds do whatever they like simply because they are children. I am saying like mental patients children can be dangerous and unpredictable and MUST be handled that way, yes it makes a cops job more difficult, it makes a parents job more difficult, in fact it makes life more difficult for everyone who comes into contact with them. (Ask a public school teacher... ) Those of you out there who are defending this cop or even justifying his actions because of unrelated atrocities, ask yourself if you would be able to defend an 8th grade school teacher who brought a gun to his classroom and blew away the little bad asses in his class. Sure the streets would be safer. But we would all have that teacher strung up fasger than the 10 seconds that cop took to decide to end this 8th graders life.
Big up yourself everytime Christopher.....I can't disagree with you on most of what you said, however I do think you reinforced the fact that this is not a race, or gun control issue. This is a we as a society have our heads up our asses and need to do things a whole lot differently issue.....
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 04:59PM
Easy there big mulli, this is just a discussion... No reason to take things so personally. I understand that feeling like youvare being made to look ridiculous can upset some folks but try to keep in mind. I am only discussing your point of view not YOU personally, no matter how close my words hit home, it just a coincidence.

And to be clear, I dont hate cops. I dont have problems with 90% of the things they do. I do however have a problem with cops who empty clips into UNARMED CHILDREN, and with the points of view in our society that alow crap like this to continue by justifying it.

Again though, dont take anything I say personally. After all, we don' t know eachother personally do we?

Thats as real as it gets.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 05:01PM
Yes!!! East bay YES!! I have purposefully stayed away from any race issues for that exact reason.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 05:07PM
by making your ridiculous suggestions to me it sure seems as if you are making it personal.
.

btw - Race had NOTHING to do with this.....(oh oh - floodgates are now open 'cuz anytime a non-white has contact
with the police it is a racial thing.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 05:13PM
Quote
mulligan
by making your ridiculous suggestions to me it sure seems as if you are making it personal.

I could tell you were confused, thats why I explained it to you.

Quote
mulligan
btw - Race had NOTHING to do with this.....

Finally something we can agree on.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 06:02PM
no confusion on this end - it all seems to be coming from you. I hope you don't get shot up by some 13 year old and then
have to defend his actions of shooting you up.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 06:20PM
He got shot for being a dumb kid. Period.
Kids are dumb.

For example, I was taking my oldest son to the airport. Fifteen years old, good grades. He had loaded up the car before I got in. We park at the airport, he's carrying two carry-on bags. One contained his clothes, the other contained........his air-soft rifle. "You can't take that thing on an airplane!" "Oh." Kids are dumb.

The other part of this story is the shooter, one Erick Gelhaus, who apparently had a hard-on for this sort of situation. According to the Santa Rosa Press Democrat:


"The Sheriff's Office confirmed Sunday that Deputy Erick Gelhaus, 48, fired the shots. A 24-year veteran of the office, Gelhaus has been a frequent advocate in his writing for a prepared, aggressive stance in law enforcement, a profession he has described as a "calling" and likened to a "contact sport."

In a 2008 article he wrote for S.W.A.T. Magazine about strategies for surviving an ambush in the "kill zone," Gelhaus began by describing the "nanoseconds (that) seem like minutes as you scramble to react while simultaneously thinking about your children and spouse."
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 07:01PM
Quote
michael turner
"nanoseconds (that) seem like minutes as you scramble to react while simultaneously thinking about your children and spouse."

therein lies the problem. do you hesitate and take a huge chance that you are going to be shot, or do you go on
your first instinct/impression and open fire??? either way is a tragedy waiting to happen. Cops have it tough and this must be the
toughest part of being a cop.

this is what is needed:
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 08:18PM
I don't know about racism, but cops certainly wage a war against teenagers....as soon as my boys grew over 5'6 they couldn't walk anywhere without getting the red eye from cops, and were constantly hassled on slight pretexts.....


so when you hear hoofbeats is it a horse or a zebra?
number of incidents of thirteen year olds using assault rifles = dozens (the zebras)
number of thirteen year olds that play with toy guns = millions (the horses)
dozens/millions = vanishingly low likelihood that this kid was a threat



Furthermore bad cop killings account for many more deaths nationally than kids shooting up schools...there's a plethora of these death by cop incidents nationwide and I daresay my odds of being killed by law enforcement are much higher than being killed by a thirteen year old...there has been a lot written lately about the consequences of the militarization of our local police forces, here in California huge amounts of money gained through asset forfeiture are used to create militarized police forces and the people attracted to this line of work are like this Gelhaus character, gung-ho ex-combat veterans..... this same story is repeated day after day across the nation and irrespective of the judgment shown by the officer in this particular case you have to be concerned that we're heading to a Brazilian or Mexican type of situation where the cops are just as unpredictable and dangerous as the criminals.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 29, 2013 08:35PM
Final observations about the shooter, gleaned from NBC.com:

In a 2006 post on Firing Line Forum, an online network for gun enthusiasts, Gelhaus wrote about the use of force against someone carrying a BB gun.
“It’s going to come down to YOUR ability to articulate to law enforcement and very likely the Court that you were in fear of death or serious bodily injury,” he wrote, according to the Reuters news service.
And in 2008, Gelhaus wrote an article for S.W.A.T. magazine in which he encouraged officers in an ambush not to “shut down,” the Chronicle reported.
“Today is the day you may need to kill someone in order to go home,” Gelhaus wrote. “If you cannot turn on the ‘mean gene’ for yourself, who will? If you find yourself in an ambush, in the kill zone, you need to turn on that mean gene.”
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 30, 2013 12:10AM
so when you see someone with a gun is it a killer (pit bull) or a kid (vermicelli)?
number of incidents of killers using assault rifles = dozens (the pitbulls)
number of kids with imitation assault rifle ignoring police orders = unknown (the vermicelli)
dozens/unknown = increasingly high likelihood that this kid is threat.

wow - your logic works both ways. cool.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 30, 2013 04:02AM
The horses/ zebras analogy is as an example of Bayesian logic, which is used in weighing probabilities when solving scientific problems....your vermicelli example however makes no sense because "unknown" is not a number and therefore a probability cannot be derived, but anyway I get your point and it's interesting, you're not arguing that the kid threatened the police, you're saying the kid was reasonably shot because he IGNORED the police. Cops usually get convicted if that's the best they can come up with but.....that's the sort of tortured logic you get when defending the indefensible.........I won't bother responding to your next thoughtful response mulligan, you might want to print it on a sign and hold it up in front of Santa Rosa City Hall tomorrow, I'm sure the people there will find it interesting.
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
October 31, 2013 01:49AM
Apparently there were witnesses
Quote

SANTA ROSA, Calif. (KGO) -- We're learning more in the ongoing investigation of a Sonoma County sheriff's deputy who shot and killed a 13-year old who was carrying a replica assault rifle.

The collection of candles and balloons honoring Andy Lopez continues to grow and people continue to show up to pay their respects. Maria Marquez and Juana Rojas have attended the memorial every day since the shooting because they want to tell the boy's parents what they saw when he was killed.

"Y nosotros nos venimos detras de la patrulla hasta aqui, el estop," Rojas said.


She says they were right behind the patrol car at a stop sign. Rojas saw the deputies turn on their police lights, then drive over to where the teenager was standing in an open lot.
Rojas and Marquez say they heard the deputies yell in english "drop the gun."

"Abrieron la puerta de cada lado y sacaron la pistola y tas, tas," Rojas said.

She says almost immediately, both deputies then opened their doors and shots were fired.

Rojas and Marquez say deputies only yelled once before opening fire.

"Imediatamente le dispararon, no le dieron oportunidad de nada," Marquez said.

She says they fired immediately and didn't give him a chance to do anything.

Early on in this investigation, police compared how similar Lopez's replica assault rifle looks to a real weapon.

They've also explained that the veteran deputy who opened fire believed Lopez was about to point the replica assault rifle at him.

But the description of events these women give is different than what investigators have described.

"Both deputies exited their vehicles, but maintained cover behind their opened doors. One of the deputies shouted at the subject to put the gun down," Santa Rosa Police Department spokesperson Paul Henry said.

These women say the deputies shouted first, then got out of their car and fired.

Another witness we talked to earlier this week describes the same.

"He pulled over to the kid walking side, and he just opened the door and shouted," Ismael Mondragon said.

The Sonoma County Sheriff's Office announced the FBI will conduct an independent investigation into the shooting death of 13-year-old Andy Lopez.

The sheriff's office released a statement saying, "The Sheriff will cooperate fully with the FBI and welcomes their participation. The Sheriff also wants to express his thankfulness to the community for how peaceful and respectful the memorials and protests have been in the aftermath of this incident. The Sheriff continues to express his sympathy to the Lopez family and the community."

On Friday hundreds of students marched to protest the shooting death of 13-year-old Andy Lopez.

Hundreds also attended a vigil Thursday night for the young teen for a second night in a row.

In recent memory no one can remember this much outrage in Santa Rosa. Children and teens participated in a march that ended at the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department on Friday.

A memorial service will be held for Lopez at the Resurrection Church in Windsor on Sunday.

Witnesses recount deputy fatally shooting Santa Rosa teen Andy Lopez | abc7news.com
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
November 05, 2013 10:39PM
OK - chiming in late here, but a few things bothering me:

First off - who cares if it looked like a real "assault rifle"? Guns are legal in CA. (converted to semi-automatic) AK-47's are legal, and obviously there was no attempt to conceal it. Therefore he was NOT acting in an illegal manner whatsoever: whether or not it was a toy is irrelevant.

Secondly - The cops just happened to roll up on him, so it wasn't a case where they were on heightened "alert" or had any reason to believe the boy was about to cause a situation.

Lastly - Cops are only allowed to use deadly force when threatened with the same, and they are supposed to be trained to deal with tense situations. Given the fact that this happened in a matter of seconds, I don't see any possible way that the deputy acted in the manner one should expect from a trained officer. Yelling something for a second and firing rounds in the same breath is in no way keeping your cool.

Our police forces are getting way too militarized, and tend to overreact to everything these days. When the Dorner thing was happening, the cops in LA opened fire on not one, but TWO vehicles that they THOUGHT matched the description (one was wrong model AND wrong color), riddling them with bullets and sending two ladies to the hospital, one shot in the back twice. Now of course they were under a lot of stress, etc. - but that does not justify overreacting to the point of endangering/injuring/possibly killing innocents! That is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what they are trained/hired to do. They need to separate "those who can" from "those who can not" at the academy. IN this situation they officers definitely overreacted, and in my opinion those are not the guys you want wearing a uniform. Glad the FBI jumped in on this one, having coworkers investigate members of their own team never works out... (military rape cases anyone?)

"I'm gonna put on a iron shirt, and chase the devil out of earth" - Max Romeo
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
November 06, 2013 04:16AM
Been thinking and reading about this...

I have come to my own personal conclusion that if I had to die trying to talk a kid down from a mass shooting it would be better than continuing this sickening cycle of violence.

Peace
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
November 07, 2013 07:12PM
Whats is crazy to me is that the dude in LAX who had already shot at a TSA agent was taken into custody alive. No rhyme or reason, I gotta chalk these things up to karma.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/11/04/lax-shooting-suspect-reportedly-told-police-acted-alone/

Positive Vibrations w/ DJ Treez | Tahoe's Reggae Show | Thursday Nights 9pm | 101.5 FM KTKE | truckeetahoeradio.com
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
November 07, 2013 07:28PM
from your article: "The alleged gunman was shot four times by airport police, including once in the mouth".
Re: California cop's mistaken fatal shooting of boy unfolded in seconds
November 07, 2013 10:41PM
And the 13 year old who had not fired a single bullet was fatally shot What 8 or 9 times? I am guessing 5 more shots would have killed him as well.

Positive Vibrations w/ DJ Treez | Tahoe's Reggae Show | Thursday Nights 9pm | 101.5 FM KTKE | truckeetahoeradio.com
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