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Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?

Posted by Daniel 
Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 21, 2005 04:49PM
Well, according to one scholar, you do:

[www.bigeddieradio.com]
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 21, 2005 04:55PM
hey Daniel
reminds me of the Rod and the I-deals song Police State
"lord you know they got their eyes on you"
and have a great holiday season winking smiley
jb welda
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 21, 2005 05:14PM
according to a speech bush gave they sure do...

but of course reality is something different. but thats par for this particular course and that speech was a couple years ago (coincidentally right when this "no court order" stuff started happening).

one love
jah bill
reggaefan
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 21, 2005 05:20PM
Acacia
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 21, 2005 05:45PM
The scariest part about this whole thing is that the NY Times had this story over a year ago, BEFORE the 2004 election. The white house asked them not to run the story for a while and they agreed. It's all pretty sickening.

For those that need proof, here is a direct quote from the NY Times article:

"The White House asked The New York Times not to publish this article, arguing that it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny. After meeting with senior administration officials to hear their concerns, the newspaper delayed publication for a year to conduct additional reporting. Some information that administration officials argued could be useful to terrorists has been omitted."

[tinyurl.com]
jb welda
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 21, 2005 05:49PM
and that would be your "liberal" press. great to know they are watching out for all of our rights.

one love
jah bill
Acacia
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 21, 2005 05:54PM
F*ck 'em.
jb welda
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 21, 2005 06:08PM
hit the nail right on the head with that one acacia.

one love
jah bill
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 12:57AM
reggaefan, great pic1

he's probly seh'in "I think we're bein tapped Dick, I cant hear anything!"
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 06:07PM
DEVILS ADVOCATE (Literally)

I might be conused, but aren't there people out in the world and right here in our country that are trying to kill us? Isn't tapping phones when these folks don't think that we are able a good way to find out what they are doing? Is there any evidence to suggest that they are randomly tapping phones just to listen in on everyday law abiding citizens? Is the government not entitled to take "secret steps" to prevent harm coming to it's citizens? Should the government have to disclose all means that they use to track enemy's of the state? Would you rather have all of your right protected all of the time? or have some of them open to interpretation and make it harder for people to duplicate or exceed the destruction of 9/11?

Someone has to ask these questions so it might as well be a Ninja, we can escape easy when the temperature starts to rise.
jb welda
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 06:34PM
so is the ninja saying he is willing to sacrifice freedom for security? and dont play this "devils advocate" thing, you posted it, you are asking the questions, not the devil.

let me repeat what ive quoted before:

those who would give up their freedom for security deserve neither.

the issue is NOT security. the issue is that there are channels in place to do just that legally; it appears that is too much trouble for those in power who will just do whatever the hell they want and damn you and damn me and damn us all if we dare to insist on legal means.

9/11 bullshit. we kill more people in the world every day than died that day and we the people who pay for it and in whose name it is done dont even hear about it. at some point we will all be held responsible for the crimes of our leaders. there was a little trial in nuremburg (sp im sure) that established that precedent.

one love
jah bill
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 06:43PM
PHONES HAVE BEEN SECRETLY TAPPED FOR AS LONG AS THEY'VE KNOWN HOW TO DO IT.
IT'S NO BIG SECRET....EVERY PRESIDENT IN OFFICE HAS USED THIS TO HIS ADVANTAGE.
I'LL ALWAYS REMEMBER SOMETHING A POLICE BWOY TOLD ME ONCE..HE WAS A POLICE IN ST. CROIX, THEN MOVED TO A SPECIAL UNIT IN MIAMI, AND THEN ONTO THE FeebleBureaucraticIntelligencia....
he was praising the results of the secret wiretapping of over 100,000 in Miami and surrounding areas....and how useful it had proven at alerting them to the movements of not only drugs & guns but people as well.
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 06:45PM
JB, close your mouth to much feces is falling out of it. The whole purpose of the line of questioning is to get you to think. Someone has to ask questions otherwise you get a whole group of people just restating the same point of view. Do you know what the term devil's advocate means and why it is used? It must be quite comfortable just to think that all the things you have you somehow deserve.
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 06:58PM
PS did it ever occur to you that America just might not work? That we cannot exist the way that we do for ever. Our way of life is the result of the domination of the rest of the world. You speak of freedoms and make the assumption that they can be had without oppressing the rest of the world. The mind set is reletive to the old British soldiers who used to get in a big ole line and wait for the enemy to go and stand in front of them. When the way that war was changed the British talked about how they would not change and to change would mean to become less civilized. Freedom is a myth. You are free as long as you have the ability to hold your freedom, and yes by hold I mean kill anyone who wishes to tkae what you have. You are correct in that you say we do worse than 9/11 everyday. We do as a whole nation. We consume at a rate beyond what is reasonable and necessary. Our Freedom is directly related to our security. Our security is designed to kill or threaten to kill anyone who wishes to attack it. In the case of Bin Laden and Al Queda, they need to be destroyed in order that we can maintain the lifestyle we wish to have. If we wish to take a few steps back and be at the mercy of other countries will the way they are at our mercy then this needn't be the case. As long as you want to have festivals, concerts, affordable fuel and since everything that you buy or sell requires ful to transport it that means affordable anything you have to kill and maime and oppress. That is the cold hard sh#t of the way the world works now and always has worked. It is no picnic, it is even horrifying. That is why so few ever to bother to look under the hood.
jb welda
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 07:02PM
look here: *secret* wiretaps are not necessarily illegal nor are they unusual. *unauthorized* wiretaps are a whole other thing. those who talk about this like its business as usual are the problem not the solution. the fact is this administration doesnt care a bit about those it pretends to "protect". i have a feeling we may soon see exactly what it does care about.

as for you ninjacat, talking with you is a waste of time. i think i will try to restrain myself from wasting my time any further.

one love
jah bill
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 07:04PM
i truly like looking under the hood NINJA, no joke. i feel like........
is the Universe peaceful? no. it is chaos...as is life here on earth. so, if yu never hold a medi on this, and keep pushing these realities away and keeping them out of sight and minds eye...you arent really addressing the way things really are. Keeping a 'peace' attitude about things is fine, for you and how you deal with your loved ones and what you would wish for them....but on the hard scrabble front lines of life....you MUST be ready for warfare.
if not you will be trampled under heavyweight babylon foot.
i like to take inventory of the worlds problems, the diseases, the armed conflicts, the wiretapping stories, the genocides, the stress & strifes human beings not only create, but also endure.
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 07:09PM
Ninja, when you speak drivil, you get the same in return. JB's response hit the sentiments I was feeling when reading yours on the head. Please tell us this is not really your views…

Yes, there are people out there who want to kill not us, but the lifestyle we propogate throughout the world. Yes, tapping may be a way to minimize the risk. That is why the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act was passed. It allows for ‘secret wiretapping’ supervised by the courts.

You ask “Is there any evidence to suggest that they are randomly tapping phones just to listen in on everyday law abiding citizens?” The answer is HOW WOULD WE KNOW? It is done in secret without obtaining a court order, so HOW WOULD WE KNOW how it is being utilized? That is why we have such things as laws and courts, but King George doesn’t seem to believe he has to stoop so low.

Binghi Ghost, you are confusing the issue here. We know that phones have been secretly tapped for years. But up till now, it has NEVER been done legally in the United States without a court order.

King George maintains his actions are both legal and necessary (can’t wait for a court order), but they are neither. They are not legal because he has no authority to take such action, and any claim that the law passed by congress after 9/11 allows him to do that is pure BS. It is not necessary because, FISA allows him to tap today and seek an order approving that within 72 hours.

[www.informationclearinghouse.info]
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 07:19PM
Yes I Binghi, I didn't see you post when I was posting my PS. Was not directd at you. I just get tired of people thinking that freedom is something that first off is real and secondly is something that they have a right to. Freedom is an ideal not a reality. Inventory is a good way to put it.
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 07:21PM
why the F8ck doesn' any one know what devil's advocate means. It is when you take a position that is not your own to stoke a conversation. Of course I do not believe that sh*t. I just wanted to see how people would respond to the questions that the idiots would use to defend their actions.
Acacia
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 07:28PM
Well, if I did have a chance to respond directly to those idiots, I'd tell them they are full of sh*t and they know it.
Acacia
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 07:29PM
No use arguing logic against lies.
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 07:29PM
Tru Daniel I. BUT how do you enforce LAW on the LAWMAKERS themselves?
Nah but, my whole point b4 i confused the issue is this:
WE DON'T HAVE ANY POWER TO STOP ANYTHING THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX MIGHT WANT TO DO, including wiretaps. they will do what it is that they do...best thing...stay off their radar.
Writing from the bay area we have many more rights than a lot of the rest of these united states of Amerikkka, but we still shouldnt be surprised when we hear that we are 'SECRETLY' being listened too. i'm definately not surprised, nor up in arms...come listen nuh bush. listen to my convo's..and see if you can even ovahs what the ras we talking about.
jb welda
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 07:41PM
binghi ghost, think about this: youre writing what youre writing on a computer connected to the internet. i would guess you use a cell phone as well.

under those circumstances its a bit too late to worry about privacy: both have been held to not need a court order of any sort to monitor (i believe anyway...maybe daniel can cite chpt and verse on it for me), so the point is moot. no one hardly needs "wiretaps" anymore because we have accepted and adopted technology that makes such hard wired concepts unnecessary and we have seemingly accepted that somehow this is ok.

i would have to agree that in reality there is not much a person can do to stop such a thing as the MIC but on the other hand if you give up then you give in and they have their way. the point of speaking out is to let them know there is still a battle to be won and not everyone is going to roll over and acquiese to whatever the oppression du jour happens to be.

freedom is *still* supposed to be one of the tenets and *rights* we possess in this country no matter what that freedom is built upon...what it is built upon is worthy of debate but the concept and what exactly it means on any particular day is not, in my opinion at least.

one love
jah bill
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 07:48PM
good vibes JB Welda. It is what it is for sure....and do you want *them* to know you are a LOUD voice standing up against their tyranny? or do you not want to be known by *them* at all, off the grid off the map?
I hear the 'DON'T ACQUIESE!' side you present too....but at some point, if you become a big enuff pain....why would *they* just not OFF you? accidental car accident or something of the sort?
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 08:09PM
BG. We have here so called 'checks and balances'. "The Law", be it state, local or federal, is part of the executive branch. But 'the law' can't act willy nilly, they have to abide by constitutional protections, one of which is the freedom from 'unreasonable' searches. Except in emergency situations, 'the law' cannot just search one's "private areas" (no Zoki not that, but rather those areas where we have a reasonable expectation of privacy such as in our home, in our bags etc.) To search, 'the law' needs a warrant, which they have to get from a judge. Hence, the judiciary branch keeps the executive branch 'in check' by only granting search warrants where a justifiable basis exists for the search.

I realize this is a little thick and very 'theoretical', but that is how we the people keep 'the law' in check. As an aside, THE MILITARY has absolutely no right to do anything within this country (which is why the gov. or Ark. had to request her state be declared a disaster zone before the military could come in to assist). I suspect you knew this and were merely using the term MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX as another way of saying the 'babylon shitstem'...

BTW, I don't have a cell phone (or a corless phone for that matter), because I wish to retain my right of privacy when speaking on the telephone.
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 08:31PM
ZEEN. the checks & balances are the VISIBLE efforts put in place to keep things in check. If those sed Checks & Balances were actually doing that, we wouldnt be having this post and/or discussion.
But since we are, it shows what the BIG GUY King george thinks of our constitutional rights. just a 'cotdamn piece of paper' isnt it George. they pretty much seek out & destroy at will, according to their domestic policy of "PROTECTING US."
i think i told the story earlier in the year, how i was searched out and found by the FBI.....for filming footage of the richmond/san rafael bridge being built. ridiculous.

hey, at least they are letting you carry nail clippers on planes again...maybe things are loosening up!
Re: Wiretaps - Do you need a court order?
December 22, 2005 08:36PM
Well, when things do get out of balance, then it is incumbant upon ones and ones to speak up in order to keep things in check. My guess is that we will be hearing a lot more about orderless taps and (hopefully as a result of the people's outrage) it will some become a thing of the past.
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