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the cartoon controvery

Posted by aquaponics 
the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 12:37PM
i feel I've been on the pulse of this current controvery for a while now and now it's literally blowing up. How, or why, one religion should tell I what to do?? Religion should be a personal thing, as we all have an inner spirit guiding us through this life, regardless if we had ever found a book like the bible or the Quran. Anyhow, I found this opinion article to be "real" in these times. Enjoy.
ic



CALVIN AND HOBBES -- AND MUHAMMAD By Ann Coulter
Wed Feb 8, 8:16 PM ET

from:
[news.yahoo.com]


As my regular readers know, I've long been skeptical of the "Religion of Peace" moniker for Muslims -- for at least 3,000 reasons right off the top of my head. I think the evidence is going my way this week.

The culture editor of a newspaper in Denmark suspected writers and cartoonists were engaging in self-censorship when it came to the Religion of Peace. It was subtle things, like a Danish comedian's statement, paraphrased by The New York Times, "that he had no problem urinating on the Bible but that he would not dare do the same to the Quran."

So, after verifying that his life insurance premiums were paid up, the editor expressly requested cartoons of Muhammad from every cartoonist with a Danish cartoon syndicate. Out of 40 cartoonists, only 10 accepted the invitation, most of them submitting utterly neutral drawings with no political content whatsoever.

But three cartoons made political points.

One showed Muhammad turning away suicide bombers from the gates of heaven, saying "Stop, stop -- we ran out of virgins!" -- which I believe was a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence. Another was a cartoon of Muhammad with horns, which I believe was a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence. The third showed Muhammad with a turban in the shape of a bomb, which I believe was an expression of post-industrial ennui in a secular -- oops, no, wait: It was more of a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence.

In order to express their displeasure with the idea that Muslims are violent, thousands of Muslims around the world engaged in rioting, arson, mob savagery, flag-burning, murder and mayhem, among other peaceful acts of nonviolence.

Muslims are the only people who make feminists seem laid-back.

The little darlings brandish placards with typical Religion of Peace slogans, such as: "Behead Those Who Insult Islam," "Europe, you will pay, extermination is on the way" and "Butcher those who mock Islam." They warn Europe of their own impending 9/11 with signs that say: "Europe: Your 9/11 will come" -- which is ironic, because they almost had me convinced the Jews were behind the 9/11 attack.

The rioting Muslims claim they are upset because Islam prohibits any depictions of Muhammad -- though the text is ambiguous on beheadings, suicide bombings and flying planes into skyscrapers.

The belief that Islam forbids portrayals of Muhammad is recently acquired. Back when Muslims created things, rather than blowing them up, they made paintings, frescoes, miniatures and prints of Muhammad.

But apparently the Quran is like the Constitution: It's a "living document," capable of sprouting all-new provisions at will. Muslims ought to start claiming the Quran also prohibits indoor plumbing, to explain their lack of it.

Other interpretations of the Quran forbid images of humans or animals, which makes even a child's coloring book blasphemous. That's why the Taliban blew up those priceless Buddhist statues, bless their innocent, peace-loving little hearts.

Largely unnoticed in this spectacle is the blinding fact that one nation is missing from the long list of Muslim countries (by which I mean France and England) with hundreds of crazy Muslims experiencing bipolar rage over some cartoons: Iraq. Hey -- maybe this democracy thing does work! The barbaric behavior of Europe's Muslims suggests that the European welfare state may not be attracting your top-notch Muslims.

Making the rash assumption for purposes of discussion that Islam is a religion and not a car-burning cult, even a real religion can't go bossing around other people like this.

Catholics aren't short on rules, but they couldn't care less if non-Catholics use birth control. Conservative Jews have no interest in forbidding other people from mixing meat and dairy. Protestants don't make a peep about other people eating food off one another's plates. (Just stay away from our plates -- that's disgusting.)

But Muslims think they can issue decrees about what images can appear in newspaper cartoons. Who do they think they are, liberals?
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 07:34PM
This whole thing bothers me to death - killing and rioting over a newspaper cartoon - that is absolutely the lamest thing I've ever heard. Muslims need to start paying attention to the words that came from God, and not the ones they loosley attribuite to the prophet, and join the human race.

THOU SHALT NOT KILL - how much f****g simpler does it get?

They just continue to draw lines between themselves and the west, not that we do much better to help things I admit, but this takes the cake.

Bush and these radical muslims - they are all like a bunch of kids, except their fights involve guns and bombs. Both are overdue for a timeout.
Dr. Lifty Lu
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 07:53PM
Am I trippin', or did someone just recommend an article from Ann "Queen of Darkness" Coulter? I'm assuming, since this is the SNWMF site (Irie Heads Only!), that Aquaponics is just ignorant of Coulter's status as the third part of America's Trinity of Hatemongering and Propaganda. (O'Reilly, Limbaugh). Perhaps we should be promoting messages of unity and togetherness (One Love) instead of emphasizing the religious corruption that is currently poisoning our planet. As for the article, Coulter's one-sided hatred and venom for all things not American (upper-class white America, of course) is thinly veiled by her childish sarcasm. France and England Muslim countries?? Iraq a democracy?? "the rash assumption that Islam is a religion"???? Aquaponics, Please, tell us what your inspiration for passing along this devious piece of tabloid-style propaganda.

P.S. Stop watching FOX News!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dr. Lifty Lu
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 07:59PM
The European Police State?????? It's called Socialism, and as the Spear once said, "Social Living is the best!!!!!"
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 08:05PM
This anger at the Muslim population as a whole is askew. How many Muslims are in the world? How many Muslims are acting violently over these cartoons? I would seh, a VERY SMALL minority of dem... The above article mentions "thousands" and "hundreds." Is this the whole Muslim population on earth? I KNOW that it is not... I have sympathy for and faith in the majority of Muslims in this world who ARE peacefull, spiritual, and decent human beings...

[www.islamicweb.com]

when we criticise a whole group of people because of the actions of a few, are we not doing that whole an injustice? c'mon people... One Love!



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 08:06PM
well sed Lifty Lu



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Dr. Lifty Lu
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 08:07PM
I mean "European welfare state". Sorry, but sometimes the terminology of Babylon' s Works get a little muddled, especially with the hippie speedball (shade grown organic coffee & kind ORGANIC herbs) making me temporarily dyslexic.
Dr. Lifty Lu
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 08:08PM
Ras Danny from SLO??
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 08:10PM
nuh, I am in Portland OR, a DJ on KBOO Community Radio, Higher Reasoning Reggae Time [www.kboo.fm]



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Dr. Lifty Lu
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 08:22PM
Word
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 08:46PM
OK - I was refferring to the more radical "fundamentalist" faction, but it still comes down to people committing murder over a cartoon.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 08:54PM
well, at least its a cartoon and not a blatant lie by their "leaders"
sumthin real... not a total fabrication...



Post Edited (02-12-06 12:55)

--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 12, 2006 09:02PM
hippy morons
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 12:14AM
Yes IC, serious times indeed. Which is why we must seek overstanding and avoid making easy assumptions and generalities and try to clarify what and who we're really talking about. Current estimates put the number of world-wide Muslims at btw. 900 mil. - 1.4 bil. The number of rioters? in the thousands. So we're talking a tiny, tiny portion of the population. Is Miss Coulter referring to all Muslims of any nationality no matter their skin color or just the Arab variety? What I suspect she is really referring to is her own hysterical stereotyped image of a "muslim". What about--

"In order to express their displeasure with the idea that Muslims are violent, thousands of Muslims around the world engaged in rioting, arson, mob savagery, flag-burning, murder and mayhem, among other peaceful acts of nonviolence."

-- Christians, Jews, and other "peaceful" people never do these types of things do they? yeah right.

"The little darlings" ???-- if she was calling African American NOI members "son" or "child" who would deny her obvious bigotry?

"Muslims ought to start claiming the Quran also prohibits indoor plumbing, to explain their lack of it." This is so blatant and childish I shouldn't have to point it out. Cheap Dig. She might as well make a "camel jockey" or "sand n**" joke.

"Other interpretations of the Quran forbid images of humans or animals, which makes even a child's coloring book blasphemous. That's why the Taliban blew up those priceless Buddhist statues, bless their innocent, peace-loving little hearts." -- some interpret the biblical commandment against images the same way. Ever heard of the Christian Iconoclasts? This is why so many ancient statues and monuments are missing arms and noses, peace-loving Christians.

"even a real religion can't go bossing around other people like this." -- I guess she get's to define what's "real".

"Catholics aren't short on rules, but they couldn't care less if non-Catholics use birth control"- pretty sure Benedict would disagree with this one.

The real enemy is Fundamentalism no matter what "religion" it claims to stand for. Violent pathology is common to all Imanity not just one religion. Don't listen to the propaganda and jump to easy assumptions. The media is being used to ramp up the tension and encourage discord. "us and them" is brainwashing. The Whole a We are ONE!

Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who insult you and persecute you.

Give thanks for the reasonment and respect IC!
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 12:25AM
> The Whole a We are ONE!

> Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who insult you and persecute you.

BOOM!

respect Pablo - One Love, One Heart



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Translucent
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 05:56AM
What a post Pablo! Not only you dismantled that ignorant-at-best piece of writing, but you did inna positive & respectful way. Now that's forwarding consciousness!!

"The real enemy is Fundamentalism no matter what "religion" it claims to stand for. Violent pathology is common to all Imanity not just one religion. Don't listen to the propaganda and jump to easy assumptions. The media is being used to ramp up the tension and encourage discord. "us and them" is brainwashing. The Whole a We are ONE!"

Pay attention to theses words of wisdom from the I, as dem sumarize the plot of our times!!!

"All is One, One is None, and None is All"
Guidance
Maconha
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 06:37AM
They should pay more attention to the treatment of women in fundamentalist Islamic societies such as Pakistan & Iran and less to stupid cartoons drawn & posted in northern Europe.

Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 03:06PM
First, Dr., I am claiming ignore-ancy about the author. Sorry to spread the message of the "Queen of Darkness". I have no TV so don't know any anything about FOX news, except it's another classic example of propaganda media mind control. Didn't know she was part of an evil axis of journalism. This came from a news.yahoo.com site. Should we also avoid that site? I don't think turning off Fox news is the solution, rather if you happen to see Fox news, watch with as much suspicion as you might with a religious book passed down through the ages, every now and then being "edited" for the mogle. As for i "inspiration for passing along this devious piece of tabloid-style propaganda," I would like to reason, as Mrs. Coulter started (unfortunately with sarcasm), "the religious corruption that is currently poisoning our planet."

As we've seen through the ages, corruption in the name of religion has poisoned the planet and the minds and souls that inhabit her. i am against any extreme religion that wants to force their doctrines on all individuals. More government overseers telling I what to think spiritually is not where I want to be. Maybe socialism can have great community benefits, just make sure whoever is running things has the same religious beliefs as you, right. Also look at who runs those things and see if wealth is always divided equally.

Because the Muslim religion wants to increase the control of the global population through fundamentalist thought, you will see more Government control, Gender oppression, and restriction of free thought, like depicting an image of the great Prophet Muhammed.

I have tried to reason the religion of Islam, especially through knowledge of the Quran. The Quran forbides any depiction of the Prophet. Period. To InI that is like not allowing your mind to ponder these things. Not allowed. And blasphemy. Who's to say, or judge.

Remember Samon Rushdie "the Satanic Verses". He apparantly blasphemed the Prophet becaused he criticized some of the later passages of the Quran, as he theorized they were not the message of the one god, rather influenced by more worldly pleasures, hence the Santanic Verses. The leaders of the islamic world, those the masses look and listen to, put a death hit on the author. You have heard recently of a female black attorney (i think also in denmark, but from Africa) that has brought attention to some female mutilation and mistreatments received in the name of islam. There's also a death threat on her. Now this "law" about not depicting an image of the Prophet. Not only do the islamic leaders want to press this rule on all the 900 mil. - 1.4 bil Muslims, they also want to press these rules on all humans. This is about world domination.

"The real enemy is Fundamentalism no matter what "religion" it claims to stand for." The Muslim religion is fundamental in it's being. there is no halfway. When the islamic number gain the majority, you will be told what to do, what to think and how to do it. I saw some sense (and humor) in Mrs. Coulters opinion in that most of the current world religions are not forceful in their doctrines.

"Catholics aren't short on rules, but they couldn't care less if non-Catholics use birth control. Conservative Jews have no interest in forbidding other people from mixing meat and dairy. Protestants don't make a peep about other people eating food off one another's plates. (Just stay away from our plates -- that's disgusting.)"

Perhaps Benedict would disagree, but currently no Christian is telling I what i haffi do. Seperation of church and state is a necessary. When I lose I freedom of religion, I lose life.

Some say the rioters are few compared to the entire Muslim population, but the rules still appy. If YOU blasphem against THEIR rules, you will meet violent ends. The few radicals are influencing and progressing the other Billions of followers. Just like the Christian crusades of the past, domination at the cost of whaaa???

I've tried to open eyes before here at SNWMF site with a discussion of Zionism and are rastas, the religious rastas, not just reggay rastas, included as those that support Zionism. Because the european newspapers blasphemed the Prophet, i am seeing banners calling for the death of Zionism supporters.

I have many many Muslim friends here on our likkle island but do think if their religion comprised the majority of our population, and we didn't live in a country that allowed for the freedom of religion, I would soon fall under islamic law, as well as I wife.

I think Islam has an agenda that just doesn't jive with "The Whole a We are ONE!"

For all here that took offense to the post by "the Queen of Darness", I SINCERELY apologize. Her comments were her opinion, and not mine. i agreed with some of the comments, i found it timely and also important. Thank you all for reasoning in such a respectful way. I look forward to a great future where we all live our own lives.

IC
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 03:18PM
yahoo has actually helped China and other countries crack down and track down disidents who use the internet to forward free speach in dem areas, yes helped track dem down so that those countries can imprison dem... yahoo has been in on the imprisonment of MANY chinese freedom fighters... mebbe yahoo is not a good company, mebbe? I for one have stopped using dem if I possibly can get round it in mi day-to-day...

ic, yes I see weh ya comin from... I must jus have hope and faith that those billion a so Muslims who are NOT the few thousand violating the peace of the earth, have enuff courage and tru faith in demself (and dem faith) to stand up to this hipocrisy, and forward in a tru meaningful way... after all each of dem MUST have a conscience and must be given the respectful benefit of doubt...

I jus hav a very hard time lookin at the state of dis Imanity in such a way that I lose my faith that GOODNESS SHALL PREVAIL!!!



Post Edited (02-13-06 07:33)

--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 03:37PM
I think some of you are missing the point of the protest. It isn't just a stupid cartoon to those protesting. It is a sin agianst their religon. The same sin which Jesus was nailed to the cross for, in the eye's of the Pharisees (sp). You may disagree, but it is probably because you are not in their shoes. Not to mention I would be willing to bet that this is the straw that broke the....because of the whole situation of Muslim people all over the world. Occupation, corrupt governments, refusal to recognize the democratically elected governments and support for the tyrants by the western world. All of these things and now they are mocking the prophet? I think a lot of this is time and place.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 03:52PM
In christianity, if you sin you ask for forgivness. Apparently some of these muslims feel a sin is punishable by death - even if you are from the same country as the actually sinner you are liable, and even though murder IS a sin. Where is the logic... what message are they helping to spread...
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 04:02PM
Respect IC for speaking about something worth speaking about! Crucial in these times!

"Because the Muslim religion wants to increase the control of the global population" -- this is much too general of a statement. Certain factions are indeed using the Koran and the name of Islam to work this agenda. But so are factions of "the Christian religion" and "the Jewish religion" using their "sacred texts" to do the same. The control structure will wear whatever mask is most convenient to maintain control. Their is no "Muslim religion". Suunis don't consider shi'ites "real" muslims and shi'ites don't consider suunis to be "real". Just because one cleric or ayatollah issued a death order against Rushdie or anyone else doesn't mean he spoke for all 1 billion Muslims. A lot of "Rastas" love nothing more than to burn fire all over people who don't fit their own form of fundamentalist extremeism.

"currently no Christian is telling I what i haffi do. Seperation of church and state is a necessary. When I lose I freedom of religion, I lose life." -- currently is the key word. The inquisition wasn't that long ago, and the slaughter and forced conversion of indigenous populations is basically ongoing.

I overstand where the I is coming from Charlie. I doubt any I here would trade "freedom of religion" for "sharia law" but jumping to over generalisations and fear mongering don't forward anything good. The powers that be want "us" in the "west" to fear and despise Arab Muslims. The powers want "them" in the "muslim world" to hate the "west" in turn. They'll just keep turning the screws as long people keep are willing to be used as tools. Don't fall for their pathetic fearmongering. Just come with love for every living structure and the Most-High will guide. Respect.
BG
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 04:38PM
The final war is coming.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 04:55PM
Dub guy you have to look at place and time, Christianity is 2000 years old and it has not always been if you ask forgiveness you are forgiven, people were burned at the stake, drowned, hung and even worse. There are plenty of Christians in the moder day who feel sin is punishible by death. Murder for isntance, that is why we have the death penalty. We feel that some actions deserve death. Whether or not this is a true Christian belief is up for debate.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 05:09PM
Pablo, Bless... very level headed discussion deh bredrin...

I fully agree ta this statement--> The powers that be want "us" in the "west" to fear and despise Arab Muslims. The powers want "them" in the "muslim world" to hate the "west" in turn. They'll just keep turning the screws as long people keep are willing to be used as tools....

a massive divided is a powerless massive ...



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
BG
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 05:38PM
is there any other end but war at this point? can you see the hatred between the arab world and the west subsiding thru mediation????
I feel it is bottlenecking to a very skinny point of no return... and with many nations, both legit and rogue ones, actively seeking out nuclear weaponry...it is only a matter of time. The us is one superpower who will go to its death rather than give up that title.
If you are an arab leader, & you are truly full of hatred for israel and the west, what better way to prove that to your like minded fanatical bretheren than by laying waste to one of them via nuclear armageddon????
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 05:59PM
can we hav jus a tidbit, a LITTLE faith in the goodness that MUSTexist in each human soul, that dis GOODNESS will come outta dem who are lost in this blind hatred, violence & greed, some faith that they will experience an epiphany telling them that we are all here to exist TOGETHER as opposed to exterminating one another... can we have some a dat?

I cyaan jus give in ta the idea that we must live in havoc an war, I won't give in an start beLIEving the Lu La Lae, this careless talk; the more people start to buy into that mindset, then the worse it will seem to be, caan we jus TRY ta have faith in GOOD, keep DAT mindset and forward that GOODNESS SHALL PREVAIL

GOODNESS duzn't just happen, each One must THINK it, KNOW it, DO it.. evrytime! it's jus opposite a what dem who are in the power seat are doin... seen...



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 06:04PM
If you think that christains aren't trying to control the general population as much as any other religon you're kidding yourself. Our own president openly requests for laws to ban stem cell research, abortion, and gay marraige because of his religous beliefs, and that's just one example.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 06:29PM
Danny, i also reason pon yahoo midnite list. I've seen they keep track through cookies and tings, but I figure any internet site is going to be "under survelience". I'm always suspicious when I'm "connected".

InI do think that GOODNESS will prevail. I don't think I said other-wise. I just realeyes things are going to get real tough. BG has some points there. Vaughn sings about war in Iraq seems like dey never gonna stop. Do you or others here see a quick reversal in the imanity attitude agwan these times. I also say those those that can prevail and come forward into peacetime will live love. Until then, we are being played by the likes of Saddam, Bush, Bin Laden and Blair. A jihad, justified by a religious book pon another religion.

Ninja,
this is kinda what I was getting at, but I think we disagree. Sure the cartoon broke the camels back, but who is this religious intitution to tell I that I sinned (had I written or displayed the drawing)? Yes it is a sin in their religion, and each religion has it's own "laws" or sins. But MY RELIGION IS NOT YOUR RELIGION. This has been running on I mind for months. Sometimes wish I had this bumper sticker. So, this is why I brought this thread out. My Religion is Not Your Religion. Don't press yours in I face, seen. and tell me I'm a sinner if I draw the blessed Muhammed. chaaaa. I am that I am, I am I am .... And I'm not just talking about violence, but if your religion prohibits something, just don't do it. Especially if InI am not hurting anyone, please don't come around protesting I actions. (I actually thought the one about Muhammed not letting anymore martyrs in the heavens because there were no more virgins left, pretty funny) Maybe the posting of the cartoons was not a nice thing considering the times, but that does not make it a global sin

"I think some of you are missing the point of the protest. It isn't just a stupid cartoon to those protesting. It is a sin agianst their religon."

Dubguy, kinda like bush changing definitions to suit his agenda, these are not murderers, rather martyrs.

Dr. Lifty Lu, didn't Steel Pulse sing "Tribute to the Martyrs?"

Pablo, brethren, I agree Islam, Christians, Rastafarians, Jews and on and on and on all have the over generalized drive to increase and control. I'm not putting down this movement alone in I thoughts. And I did include currently as the Christian crusades were bloody times indeed

Goes past the Arab world. Currently Asia, Indonesia, South America, Central Am and the Caribbean, you know Africa, on and on and on, it's spreading. Be ready for a revolution, show your love and live. But be strong and wise. Open all the eyes. In these times there is more going on than fearmongering, propaganda or extremism of the few.

"The powers that be want "us" in the "west" to fear and despise Arab Muslims. The powers want "them" in the "muslim world" to hate the "west" in turn

Love and guidance from the one god
ic - another god prophet
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 06:29PM
that isn't just Christians who are opposed to stem cell research and Gay marriage. All Judeo Christian faiths are opposed to gay Marriage. Most Human beings on the planet would be considered "anti gay"
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 06:30PM
Ras Danny,

some here say the choosen a few!

ic
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 06:56PM
"My Religion is Not Your Religion. Don't press yours in I face, seen." -- very much agreed IC! I'm not sure of exactly what it's like in STX right now, but are their currently riots or protests taking place there? I have personally never had any muslim complain to me about this issue and have not witnessed any protests despite living down the street from a mosque. The only ones pressing this in I face are the media. If ones continue to beLIEve, as Ras Danny say, then this armageddon will only self-manifest. Stay Aware and don't succumb to fear. Build Love and Come forth you Upfull Ones!
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 07:05PM
armageddon has been cancelled.
Translucent
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 07:35PM
Another crucial post Pablo!

IC, like bredren Pablo, I sure see where u comin from. I've read your posts for a while now and have nothing but respect for you and think that you have added much to this board, but I think babylon's depiction of Islam have infiltrated your mind if I may say.

You've mentioned that you "...have tried to reason the religion of Islam, especially through knowledge of the Quran.", but the Koran is very complex and hard to overstand, and as with any other writing or speech, needs to be looked at in its context. Islam hails from a region that was no-man's land before the prophet Muhammad. So the koran emanates as a complete Life manual, and Islam as a religion that addresses every area of Life. As oppose to what babylon says, Islam does not oppress women, quite the contrary. Oppressive behavior in any manner emanating from Islamic societies are remanascent of the no-man's land times and is born out of local costums in existence before Islam, or created by muslims out of touch with their religion, which are by far the minority. The word Islam may be interpreted as "The peace that comes when one surrender his/her Life to God", and from my relative knowledge of this religion and my encounters and reasonings with Muslims, I testify that this is true. But Muslims who act in certain ways demonstrate that they have surrender their lives not to God, but to local costums and beliefs, and to wicked leadership.

I must go now but will be back to join again in this crucial reasoning and finish my post.

"The question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists will we be" -MLK-

Guidance
Maconha
BG
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 07:42PM
Yes I.... I.C. mi bredda, Ninja, Rasdanny, all crew....
The VI has a very large arab population. they own grocery chains, gas stations, markets, produce shops, car dealerships, etc etc....nuff Syrians, lebanese, even palestinians....
i know you know the story about Plaza extra IC, after 911....when the fbi came down and locked up dem shop for "cavorting" with terrorists...and tax evasion was the best way to get them when they couldnt prove otherwise.....but these same Arabs dont cause no ruckus, no uproar, no upheaval, no protests, no violence and no warmongering...."they" are of the community, their kids are in the schools, they own businesses, they enjoy life. So, even tho i dont know how the arab populace is reacting to these cartoons, i bet they are continuing their way of life in the community they choose to live in, without violence.
Also, to rasdanny and to Pablo.........i'm not so sure i agree with the "think positive and goodness will manifest" when dealing with religion. Many men made religion what it is, and i trust not mankind to make the right decision when religious dogma is at play. Thinking good thoughts works on cancer....not so sure about how good it will work on religious zealots of any creed.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 09:10PM
just remember, what you and I call religon they see as reality. No as a matter of opinion but as a matter of fact. Making fun on the Prophet is not a personal choice it is a very real insult to the Prophet and beyond that to God. It isn't a matter of letting you believe what you want because there is no other reality their is only the Prophet and God (Allah). This is not my personal opinion any more than that the ewrth rotates around the sun. This is the context which you must overstand and if you choose not to then you will continually but heads with tragic outcomes
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 09:13PM
> Thinking good thoughts works on cancer....not so sure about how good it will work on religious zealots of any creed.

BG, I am not jus suggestin -that we only THINK GOODNESS, thinkin is a way of fortifying our WILL to do GOODNESS, it is the root of all our actions (I would hope), unless of course we are just jumpin at evry likkle percieved threat or other action, if you read back from I post, I did seh --> each One must THINK it, KNOW it, DO it.. evrytime!... and by evrytime, I mean ALL THE TIME

I agree that it is folly to suggest that to THINK a thing will mek it so, even the
suggestion that "Thinking good thoughts works on cancer" is absurd, I can't go with that

evil only begetts evil, and to suggest that this is the only way to combat the evil that is going on around us is purely ludicrous! and sets Ones up for disaster & chaos

IC, I really don't hold with ANY religion, I tek a likkle from each faith and follow I own trod... keeping righteousness, GOODNESS in da forefront. an I don't think "we" are being played by them ones ya speak of above, not the Eyes who are aware, hopefully all those who participate in this Phorum, but the masses of those who don't have their eyes open, the ones who go blindly to the polls and vote on this idiaht or that, who love their tosters an ski-mobiles an suv's, an their lovely likkle tv shows (which incidentally fortify the "need for violence" mindset), the masses who are basicly comatose, these are the eyes who are bein "played"... ya cyan play an open-minded playa!



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
BG
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 09:26PM
Ninja, agreed. but i dont really respect that. If that is their way of life, and their way of life all of a sudden gets lampooned in a cartoon, in no way shape arr form does it make violence an acceptable anecdote.....way of life or not. My way of life is to give thx for life, respect others, burn my chalwah, and raise my kids, all the while finding real joy within this earthly plane. If someone disses that, my way of life, do i get to burn things down and kill innocents?
There is no amount of appeasement for sufferers or oppressed that makes reacting with violence OK. why not just come right out and say it........
ISLAM HAS NOT MADE A POSITIVE CONTRIBUTION TO SOCIETY SINCE THE YEAR 1200.
Society, the place where all human beings live, work, play and co-exist at. Society demands that you, first and foremost, come with respect of one another. So an anti Mohammed cartoon is only wrong because it disses the muslim faith, but an anti semitic cartoon doesnt deserve protests of similar caliber???
I am not coming at this from a religious standpoint either, bun out religion....bun it out til is ash and paper trash. I am speaking from humanity's ground floor...preservation of life itself.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 10:00PM
Powerful reasoning session. i recently revisited a document written by Willie Lynch, a slave master from the carribean who produced a manual on the best way to enslave african people. He stated "I have outlined a number of differences amongst the slaves, and i take these differences and make them bigger, i use fear, distrust, and envy for control purposes". babylon, through it's propoganda dispenser, the news media is still using "differences amongst the people for control purposes. this plan has been in effect and works on many different levels. the news media is about sensationalism. broadcasting and emphasizing violence from a few is a way to reinforce the stereotype that muslims are all potential terrorist, and help to promote fear in the west so as to tighten their grip on all nations. watch how babylon will try to use this word non-violence. violence is only o.k. and proper when they use it.

Just trust that the muslim reaction to the cartoons was anticipated by the Danish media. they are not suprised, they did it deliberately, knowing there would be controversy. this is how careers are made for them. People from st. croix have already experienced the danish idea of "non-violence" having endured many years of slavery as a Danish colony. this is another attempt to cloak babylon violence in a mask of righteousness.

Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 10:16PM
word! Red I, bless...



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 10:28PM
an intresting transcripts of a recent segment of Democracy Now! program ::

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As protests continue around the world, two analysts say Muslims have been as angered by the cartoons as they have by the hypocrisy behind their publication. [includes rush transcript]

Rahul Mahajan, editor of the website EmpireNotes.org and author of the books "The New Crusade: America's War on Terrorism" and "Full Spectrum Dominance: U.S. Power in Iraq and Beyond."
Behzad Yaghmaian, Iranian-born author living in the United States. He is the author of the book Embracing the Infidel: Stories of Muslim Migrants on the Journey West. It is based on two years of traveling in the Middle East and Europe following migrants from Muslim countries. He is also a professor at Ramapo College in New Jersey.


JUAN GONZALEZ: Rahul Mahajan, let¹s ask you, these cartoons actually were published in September. This is months later that these protests have erupted around the world. Your reaction, one to the publication here in the United States of a Wyoming newspaper, and also to the protests themselves?

RAHUL MAHAJAN: Well, I think the question of publication now and the question of the original publication are two different things. The problem with the first one was that some of the cartoons, in particular with the one with the Prophet's turban as a bomb, with allah jdssdjf written on it were not just blasphemous if you¹re a Muslim, which shouldn¹t be of concern to those who are not Muslims, but also are racists in essentially saying that all Muslims are terrorists. Now if you reprint it, it kind of depends on what your point is.

At this point it is a huge story and it is news and people should be seeing it just to see what the controversy is about. Some people are re-printing just to say it is another step in the culture wars, and I think that¹s silly. But certainly even the original publication knows there is freedom of the press and they had the right to do that it was just a really bad idea and really racist thing that should be opposed.

The reason it's taken so long for the protest to come to a head is that that's how things always happen. Political processes do not happen overnight. First of all, as was said already, there were many attempts to peacefully address the problem, most of them were rebuffed in Denmark. Then it got out to the attention of all the Muslim countries. Some governments and some groups in those countries decided to stir up protest. And then I think what really started this auto-catalytic chain was the cascade of reprinting of the stories all over the place. So I think that people say, you know, it's taken so many months, to suggest there is something manufactured about the crisis but no, that's just how things work politically.

AMY GOODMAN: Behzad Yaghmaian, your response?

BEHZAD YAGHMAIAN: I agree with most of what he said. What I like to add to this is the way the western media has portrayed the Muslim population, especially those living in the west has been very problematic. The reprinting of these cartoons in my opinion, has been a political act; a political act with an intention of demonizing the Muslim population.

That is, it was quite well calculated, it was anticipated that the most fundamentalist section of the Muslin population in the West would react. And then using that reaction as a way of the politics of exclusion to excluding the Muslim migrants. There are fifteen million Muslims living in the west, in Europe now. The Europeans are not happy with that. The aesthetics of the cities have changed. From the beginning they were upset with having that many Muslims in the communities. The way the Muslims, some of them, dress, the way they go out, the way they eat, the way their cultures, all of them, have been troubling to a lot of the Europeans. This has now been used as a way of further excluding the Muslims. And also it's important to note that those who protested this in Europe are a very small fraction of the fifteen million Muslims who live in Europe.

The majority of the Muslims are not against ideas of western democracy; they embrace that, that is why they are there. But the media actually blames and victimizes the majority because of the action of the minority. So that's one problem. In the end it's going to lead to further marginalization of the large section of the Muslim population that wants to be a part of the European community and live there.

But there's another problem that the media doesn't address and that's really a main concern for me, that at the end of the day a very prominent and important victim of this crisis is freedom of press in the Muslim world. That is, Muslim governments like the Islamic Republic of Iran, the governments of Syria, the governments of Saudi Arabia, who have a long history of repressing free press. Iran is the number one country in terms of having prisoners who are journalists. Iran jails journalists, tortures them, kills them.

Now these governments have jumped on the bandwagon in defense of the Prophet Mohammad and Islam. So in the end, anybody in these countries who in the future would defend democracy, would be again cast aside, put in jail n the context of, look, this is what democracy brings about.

JUAN GONZALEZ: D. Reed Eckhardt, what about some of these issues of what's happening in the European press, really, being not so much a battle over freedom of the press as a reflection of the ethnic and religious and racial conflicts within Europe?

D. REED ECKHARDT: Well, certainly, Europe is a long way away from Cheyenee, Wyoming. We have an 18,000 daily papers here in the American heartland. I think for us, not to steer the conversation in another direction, for us this was simply a matter of public access. We in America say over and over again and again how much we believe in first amendment and the public access. Great newspapers like The New York Times, Washington Post argue again and again for access for their readers to information.

Now we have an issue that is particularly inflammatory and everyone shuts up. That makes no sense to me. Are these cartoons racist? Perhaps. At the same time I do think they probably represent a viewpoint of the number of people in the world, and I think my readers here in Cheyenee, Wyoming, need to see that. I've certainly seen more inflammatory cartoons in the American press since 2001 than these. We looked at them very carefully before we chose to run them, but I'm not sure that simply labeling them as racists solves the problem. I don't think it's quite that simple. I think it's very important that the papers in this country publish them. As you know the Associated Press, when they wouldn’t distribute them to their member newspapers. That concerns me.

AMY GOODMAN: Would you have published a cartoon that mocked Jews, say Jews with horns or Jesus Christ or that stereotyped African-Americans?

D. REED ECKHARDT: I think under the right circumstances we would. I've been an editorial editor for a number of years, for a number of newspapers, and when I lived in the south for 10 years we ran a number of letters that were particularly repugnant. But we did it with the understand, or the hope that our readers would try to get a sense of what the world is like going around them. Certainly if there were embassies being burned or thousands turning out for protests, not to say that's the heart of this, but a story of this size deserves, I believe, the attention that shows readers what's going on in the world around them.

AMY GOODMAN: And Iran's national newspaper has set up a competition for who could come up with the funniest cartoon about the holocaust. Would you print those cartoons?

D. REED ECKHARDT: I think we would consider it. I think it’s real important. Again, what's the reaction going to be if there are thousands marching and embassies are being burned, and national protest going on, I think we would consider it, certainly.

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking with D.Reed Eckhardt who has printed these cartoons in his paper in Cheyenee, Wyoming, the vacation home, is that right, of vice president Dick Cheney?

D. REED ECKHARDT: Well, the state certainly is, yes.

AMY GOODMAN: And also the Muslim community. You have a small Muslim community in Cheyenee. What has been their response?

D. REED ECKHARDT: So far it has been quiet. We have a mosque here. About fifty members. We've not heard from them. I heard from several readers that have expressed concern that we were sort of stirring up trouble. Our intention is to do a story the next day or two and talking to members of that mosque and getting their response to the whole controversy of us publishing those cartoons.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And, Rahul, what about this whole issue of the impact of this controversy on freedom of the press within the Muslim world? Also, is the coverage that is being given now to the demonstrations itself, in itself helping to create images of less civilized activity within the Muslim world?

RAHUL MAHAJAN: Well, I certainly agree with Behzad. Those governments that he referred to, are always leaping at any opportunity to shut down any kind of dissent. And I must say that those papers in the Muslim world that reprinted those cartoons were taking a very different kind of stance and it was a different sort of action than the European papers doing it. And whether you agree with it or not and really -- obviously there is room for criticism of Islam or any other religion or any other belief system, but these cartoons are not a sensible way of doing it. They're meaningless. But even if they couldn't find anything better, at least whatever else they said, they were taking a courageous stand. Unlike I think, the European papers.

The question of -- it's very interesting to see how these protests are being seized on and looked at, for example, by the right wing of the United States. They see this as a huge opportunity, much the same as some people saw 9/11 as a huge opportunity, although this time they don't even have to -- there's no price involved whatsoever. And it's interesting that one thing that people are constantly referring to, for example, is you bring up this and talk about Muslim anger and they say, well, what about the incredible incidents of anti-Semitic depictions in papers in the Muslim world. And that's true, it’s deplorable. But what’s interesting is that the same people very often who talk about that and bring that up most are responsible for an incredible number of racist depictions of Arabs.

Mr. Eckhardt has said, for example, by his opinion there has been a lot more racist stuff after 9/11 in this country against Arabs. And that’s true, if you look at right-wing websites. There is one called Littlegreen footballs for example. They get over a hundred thousand viewers a day. It's a huge online right wing community. They regularly print racist stuff, they regularly refer to all Muslims as “Koranimals.” Extremely racist term. This is very common, and yet they're castigating Muslims for their anti-Semitism.

AMY GOODMAN: We heard the quote of Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of State yesterday, saying Iran and Syria are behind this. Yet we read in The New York Times today that this major meeting took place dealing with the cartoons and other issues in Mecca, in Saudi Arabia. Of course, Syria and Iran that's being highlighted are official enemies of the United States. The United States has classified them in that way. Saudi Arabia a very close ally.

RAHUL MAHAJAN: It's surprising that the Bush administration didn't try to pin Katrina on Syria and Iran. They're looking for everything they can to justify any kind of bellicose language or stances towards Syria and Iran. It's a lot more complicated than that. It's a lot bigger than that. And I should note that for the most part, Iran's responses has been deplorable -- I am not a fan of mocking the holocaust -- has been in the same realm. It's been trying to get other people to do cartoons, and not primarily in terms of suborting the violence.

In Syria it’s different. Obviously if the Syrian security forces crack down the mobs they wouldn’t have been able to burn the embassies. So clearly there’s some level of complicity. The reason for that, the reason it's different now than before 9/11 is that the whole Arab and Muslim world more and more see a west united in Bush's crusade, even if they are not directly in Iraq, which Denmark is, you see them essentially in one way or another, lending tacit support to a crusade that has already destroyed and occupied two Muslim countries.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And Behzad Yaghmaian, what does this controversy do in the battle within the Muslim world, between more progressive-oriented and more fundamentalist political directions?

BEHZAD YAGHMAIAN: Well this is a defeat. Actually, a momentary defeat for the more progressive and secular forces within the Muslim world, and that is why I said that democracy and progress in the Muslim world is one of the primary victims of this process. I speak about Iran more because I have a long history of knowing what has been happening with Iran with the question of freedom of press. Now progressive forces that call for secularism, for the the privatization of religion, for the separation of the church and the state are going to be on the defensive. Because there is a momentum against them. There is a momentum to show that Western democracy, freedom of press, will lead to blasphemy, it would lead to the insult to religious views. So this has been very damaging. I also think this cartoon match is silly, it's damaging and it's going to just ignite more crisis. I hope it will stop. I hope less and less American and European journalists will join this battle of cartoons.

AMY GOODMAN: It's interesting that the same groups of people are talking about freedom of the press. And that's very important to protect, and I'm talking about in European countries and the United States, are passing laws against so-called hate speech or speech that is inciting violence, which is particularly targeting these very same communities.

BEHZAD YAGHMAIAN: Precisely, and this is also a sign of hypocrisy that the Muslim world looks at. Another example of this, in the past couple of years there has been debate across the European continent about the headscarf. And the French actually banned the wearing of headscarf. Isn't that freedom of -- I'm opposed to the head scarf from a different point of view but I do not believe that a government can actually mandate body politics. So the Muslims are saying on one hand you have the freedom to do whatever you want in your press free, but on the other hand we don't have the freedom to wear our headscarf because of our beliefs. And that causes more tension.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you think that there would be less outcry if Arab voices, Muslim voices, were as much on the front pages being quoted in the daily discourse of politics as they are in the cartoon pages?

BEHZAD YAGHMAIAN: Precisely. It would have diffused the crisis. There are many things to do now that would perhaps help reducing this crisis in the future. One, the Western countries and the press must stop only looking at the Muslims as the source of fundamentalism. Unfortunately, we have fundamentalism in all religions. Fundamentalism has been on the rise. Look at the fire bombings of abortion clinics in the United States. When the last temptation of Christ was shown in Paris, the theater was fire bombed. We have fundamentalists ruling the White House now. That needs to be addressed. Muslims don't have the monopoly of fundamentalism.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Finally, D. Reed Eckhardt, are you calling for editors and newspapers around the country to follow your lead and publish these cartoons?

D. REED ECKHARDT: Yes Juan, I certainly would hope that more of them would. I understand the concerns on the other side, but I think this nation needs a good debate about what is appropriate here. I don't think it's quite as easy, and of course we are a long away from what's going on in Europe, but it disturbs me that only a few handful of newspapers have offered their readers an opportunity to see and have the discussion.

Certainly in the next few days and months, our readers will have a talk on whether what we published was appropriate, whether it’s accurate, whether it’s concerning, whether it's racist. Without that kind of publication and that kind of debate, where do we go? I think we would agree the founders of this nation certainly understood the need for speech and even for repugnant speech to move this nation forward in many ways. If people can't see these cartoons, how do they know what they're really about? I would argue that's not what this country is about.

AMY GOODMAN: Last question, and that's for Rahul Mahajan. Is this a clash of civilizations?

RAHUL MAHAJAN: Yes. I think the battle has been joined, there is a clash of civilizations. But it's because civilizations had to, inevitably to come into a clash and it's not because of irreconcilable difference. It's because there are people on both sides, especially from the West, who want the clash of civilizations. It's here now. It's real. It's been building since 9/11, and it's going to be disastrous for all sides. The worst affect -- the biggest victims will be people in the Muslim world, not just the religious minorities, but anyone who believes in freedom in the Muslim world, who are suffering now from their own bigots and from a Western crusade.

AMY GOODMAN: Rahul Mahajan, Behzad Yaghmaian and D. Reed Eckhardt in Cheyenne Wyoming, we want to thank you all for being with us.



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 10:56PM
Give Thanks for the transcript as it deepens I overstanding of the situation. And further convinces I of the manipulation of this situation by governments via media.

"The reprinting of these cartoons in my opinion, has been a political act; a political act with an intention of demonizing the Muslim population.
That is, it was quite well calculated, it was anticipated that the most fundamentalist section of the Muslin population in the West would react."

"Our intention is to do a story the next day or two and talking to members of that mosque and getting their response to the whole controversy of us publishing those cartoons." -- see how he's admitting to "creating news"

"the right wing of the United States. They see this as a huge opportunity, much the same as some people saw 9/11 as a huge opportunity . . . this is a defeat. Actually, a momentary defeat for the more progressive and secular forces within the Muslim world" -- see how both "sides" become more radical because of this?

"It's because there are people on both sides, especially from the West, who want the clash of civilizations." -- Yes I! and may The Most High guide and protect.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 11:02PM
I was gwan point out to pay attention to that particular paragraph!



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Translucent
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 11:13PM
Crucial post Red I!

Wise words from Ras Danny also, all along! My only disagreement with the I is on the question of mind over matter. Our mind is powerful beyond measure and it has a profound impact in our bodies, iration, and reality as a whole. Sages and mytics have been telling us that all along, and now, as it couldn't be any different, science is catching up with this wisdom. Have any idrens here seen "What the bleep do we know?!". A powerful, powerful documentary on this subject. Idrens who turn away from spirituality/religion for a roadmap for their answers about Life have a good shot at finding it there! But as relevant as that is to this thread, it calls for its own.

"All is One, One is None, and None is All"
Maconha
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 11:23PM
BG

Surely there is something that would have you out in the street? For each it is different. This to them is enough to put them out in the street. Seeing as it is all over the world it is a pretty serious matter.
BG
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 13, 2006 11:44PM
Ninja, different strokes for different folks. I wasnt raised in a MADRASA reciting my Quran and praying 5 times daily. I also dont have any experience listening to firebrand clerics or preachers, my family had us avoid those at all costs. I think, that these people in the streets protesting and carrying on with violence really do care about the topic at hand, but they have had a sinister injection of propaganda from birth. This injection ALLOWS for the 'eye for an eye' reaction....and then, the clerics, knowing full well the opportunity they have at their doorstep, add fuel to the fire by rallying those most marginalized of that sect of society. Religion is all poor people have in some parts of the world...and a cartoon depicting the undepictable strikes at the core of whats wrong with the west, in their eyes. A frothing at the mouth seething muslim is just what the west loves to pour over its airwaves, tv shows and anne coulter-ized talk forums....knowing full well, it will boost the already dire situation further down the path of no return. Then the us has the worldwide go ahead to bomb the baxide out of Iran.... It's at a point of no return now i think actually.
Translucent
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 02:35AM
"ISLAM HAS NOT MADE A POSITIVE CONTRIBUTION TO SOCIETY SINCE THE YEAR 1200."

Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't you made this exact same statement in this board before?! I would assume you're refering to the west's rise out of the dark ages through their encounter with Islamic society, from whom they learned about mathematics, science, medicine, literature, philosophy, poetry, art, architeture, seafaring, etc...

Now, the reason why the west was able to learn the foundations of civilization from Islamic society is because Islam values education and scholarship tremendously, and as far as I am concerned like no other religion, with the exception of Judaism. Thus, to this day Islam continues its tradition and Muslims the world over continue to contribute in all areas of society.

Now even if that wasn't the case, what about the spiritual guidance and livity that Islam provides for hundreds of millions the world over?!!

BG, this is by no means an attack, just reasoning. Respect due.

Jah first & foremost
Maconha
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 02:39AM
Pablo,

tings relatively calm in STX at the moment. As BG and RedI know, nuff Muslim in this part of the world. Almost every gas station/drink shop is Arab owned, many from Palestine. I love individuals on a spirituaI path, hence I have many Muslim friends here. I wouldn't say these tings have been always pressed in I face, but I know some limits. For instance, most of these quickie marts also double as a "hang-out". Sometimes we burn, have a guiness or reason with brethren. I brought this up a couple months back when I came pon a local artist. Over a guiness we began a discussion about the restriction of drawing a Muhammed image. No-one around us knew the limit I was discussing. I said sure nuff if you walk into the shop with a cartoon of muhammed, you be judged as a blasphemer. No one there would dare draw the cartoon and walk in. So I do see Islamic law encroaching on I life.

We also have the largest oil refinery in the west here on likkle STX. Some say a MAJOR terrorist threat. At times we hold the entire heating oil for the east coast of the US here on island. While maybe frightened into fear, many old timers are watching the Muslim owned business for the day they all close. I do think if something dirty were to go down, some of I friendly Muslim neighbors would know in advance.

In addition, I safety as I travel outside of the US has been compromised recently. In a way I say that's in I face. Mostly is from the back and forth jihad (Bush/Blair vs Islam extremists). Regardless, Asia and Indonesia was recently on edge for I travel. Actually I left Bali the day of the Oct bombings.

Lucent,This is why I say it's not a half-way thing. a Life Manual. And I do know the context you are talking, from very tribal roots.

"So the koran emanates as a complete Life manual, and Islam as a religion that addresses every area of Life."

Long time culture of not, many of the women liberated from the Taliban regime said otherwise. All the muslim women I know are kept in shrouds even though they grew up in an American society. Also each has a husband that has mutiple partners with his "wife" knowing.
" As oppose to what babylon says, Islam does not oppress women, quite the contrary."

I guess the issue for I here is the state being run by the religious, at times wicked, leadership. Again, I'm for seperation of church and state, I think Islam seeks the opposite.

"The word Islam may be interpreted as "The peace that comes when one surrender his/her Life to God", and from my relative knowledge of this religion and my encounters and reasonings with Muslims, I testify that this is true. But Muslims who act in certain ways demonstrate that they have surrender their lives not to God, but to local costums and beliefs, and to wicked leadership."

BG, i think positive thought does have healing powers and Danny I will think IT, know IT, and live IT iverytime
Translucent
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 06:15AM
"Long time culture or not, many of the women liberated from the Taliban regime said otherwise"

Right, the customs imposed pon dem may not be indigenous to their culture prior to Islam, but they aren't indigenous to Islam either. Islam is infested with distortions that emanates from both local customs and misinterpretation, as well as sheer manipulation. In this, they are not much different from Christianity. Gimme a quote from Yeshua where he says anything about "original sin"!?!?! The difference is that Islam, by virtue of its firm and disciplined approach, lends itself more easily to distortions that may reach gruesome points and involve various areas.

So I completely overstand the I. At its surface, Islam does seems very constraining. But while I can appreciate why is not your cup of tea, I recognize its power in societies that lack moral grounds, hence it being the fastest growing religion in the US.

Give thanks for the reasoning and the insight and info on the island.

Jah first & foremost
Maconha
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 06:38AM
Aye - now we are hitting the hub of things - the right to interpret freely, and to draw your own conclusions. At the very least to reach your own overstanding, instead of being brainwashed with someone elses. Something that is severely overlooked in any organized religion if you ask me...

Sounds like you have very good parents BG, we need more like them.

Too tired to think - but I like what I'm reading...
Calireggae, you're sharp!
February 14, 2006 01:33PM
"If you think that christains aren't trying to control the general population as much as any other religon you're kidding yourself. Our own president openly requests for laws to ban stem cell research, abortion, and gay marraige because of his religous beliefs, and that's just one example."

Oh yeah , and Rasta is only a "way of life" I guess, not a quasi-religion that upholds a moral code. Reggae is cool until you gotta start defending stem cell research, abortion rights, and gay marraige! Glom on to Rasta just as long as it doesn't tread on your side of the paradigm. 20 years ago, David Hinds had no problem saying stem cell's suck, abortion's murder, and homos aren't a racial minority. Cali, get a clue and think before you start left righting us to death.

First of all, Pres. Bush doesn't have to "request laws" from Senate, Congress, or anybody else. He just rolls out new draconian legislation there for the people every day whether we or Congress like it or not. Second, where do you figure Bush is a "CHristian?" Look what's on the record-Bush 's policioes are pro stem cell, pro abortion, and he's had bisexual experiences before, not to mention he worships a 42 foot owl statue when in Crawford. REEEEEAL Conservative!



I say... Some Never Plant yet want to Reap,
Be careful, try to look before you leap;
Took a little walk from my Vineyard...
Now I'm all alone..
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 02:42PM
Give thanks for the insight IC. Nuf "targets" everywhere for iveryone to be plenty fearful. I just feel that the whole thing is MASS HYPNOTISM and I really don't wanna support it. It's tuf not to be discouraged and yes a little ANGRY sometimes. I just want to channel these energies in the right direction while hopefully transforming them into something more creative and sustaining. I don't want to be fearful and suspicous. . . I want to be AWARE and ready to big up the Loving alternative whatever that may be. I feel you on this one. What you see and so many fear may indeed come to pass. But who will really be behind it? "The control structure will wear whatever mask is most convenient to maintain control."
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 04:16PM
--> "The control structure.." currently, imho, wears da oil industry mask, but nah sure weddah "oil industry" is THE "...control structure.."



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 04:18PM
anyone seen Syriana?
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 05:46PM
Google is much more "Big Brother" than Yahoo, so good luck with a surviellence-free search engine...

Translucent
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 07:48PM
Coincidentally, I got an email last night from a Muslim bredren regarding a lecture on this very subject:

DOES GOD LOVE WAR?: The Fine Line Between Faith and Fanaticism

with Chris Hedges and Hamza Yusuf

Date: Saturday, March 11th, 2006

Venue: Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School Auditorium
1781 Rose Street, Berkeley, CA 94704 (Free off-street parking)

Timing: 7:00pm (Doors open at 6:00pm | Reception/Book-signing 6:15-6:45pm

Admission: FREE (Please donate to support this Free event. DONATE HERE.)

Have the teachers of our religions failed us? Or have we not been listening? Does religion offer a way toward reconciliation, or has it instead become part of the problem? We invite you to join us for a FREE, enlightening conversation between Pulitzer Prize-winner Chris Hedges and the distinguished American-Muslim thinker and theologian, Hamza Yusuf.

Chris Hedges is a graduate of the Harvard Divinity School, a reporter for The New York Times, and has spent 15 years covering crises in many conflict-ridden locations including El Salvador, Nicaragua, Algeria, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, Iraq, Sarajevo and Kosovo. His debut book, War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning, has been reviewed by the Times,The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, and is a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award.

Hamza Yusuf is regarded as one of the foremost Muslim thinkers and theologians in the English-speaking world. Hamza Yusuf’s story is of both the East and the West, of both Islam and America. An American convert to Islam and a co-founder of Zaytuna Institute in Hayward, CA, he has emerged as a leading expert on Islam and the West.






Now, I've never even heard of Chris Hedges, but have listened to various lectures from Hamza Yusuf and cannot speak highly enough of this great scholar. He is deeply fluent on both cultures and is inna very privileged position to build bridges of overstanding between both worlds.

Guidance
Maconha
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 08:49PM
Translucent
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 09:13PM
:0) !!!
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 10:09PM
Translucent

I would suggest, if this is in ya intrest sphere, that ya check out this lecture/debate... Chris Hedges is very wise and schooled in conflict resolution and will have ya hangin on his evry word... I am familiar with him through I work at our community radio station here KBOO, where he has appeared and been covered by our news department on numerous occassions...

ras a, dats a good one...



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 10:24PM
wanted to point The I to this as I think he has valuable insights about the commonalities of Jew/Christ/Islam and the reconciliation thereof. He focuses on the original Word Sound of Aramaic/Arabic. Very insightful. Bless.

"The orbit of every being in the universe is filled with delight.
When each travels consciously,
A sigh of wonder arises at the expanse, the abundance.
This is not the path of frustration, anger or annoyance,
Which only happens when we temporarily
Lose the way and become drained, roaming too far
From the Wellspring of Love"

-Quranic Sura Fateha
translated by Neil Douglas Klotz

[www.abwoon.com]
Translucent
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 14, 2006 11:13PM
"...if this is in ya intrest sphere..."

Can't you tell yet?!?!?!!!! :0) "...have listened to various lectures from Hamza Yusuf..." !!! :0)

Otherwise, I would not have spent my precious time on this earth reasoning over it! And would probably not have posted it here (or even gotten the email from my bredren in the first place), as I don't have time to deal with things that don't interest me. Life is but a breath. Here today, gone tomorrow. No time to waste!

I am mos definately planning on going, just don't know if I'll be able to. But after what you've shared about the speaker whom I knew nothing about, I am even more determined to go. Give thanks for the info! I figured he had to have caliber to be scheduled along with Hamza Yufu. I urge all Idrens here, if this is in their interest sphere :0), to attend this event.

Pablo, I'll check the link soon as I get a chance. It sounds interesting since these 3 religions share a common language family (even though the term anti-semitic is used exclusively to describe an attitude against jews) Also very interesting: The Semitic family of languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Amharic, Arabic, etc...) is a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family, all of whose other subfamilies are confined to Africa. Even the Semitic subfamily itself is mainly African with 12 of its 19 surviving languages confined to Ethiopia!
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 15, 2006 08:17PM
Glad this one is passing by the wayside...though today another 3 eyes were death-ed over the "cartoon controvery"

high reasonings, thanks,
ic

and Pable, much love for the Quran sura, a good book indeed! Love
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 15, 2006 11:08PM
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 15, 2006 11:57PM
to the pompously named 'truths and rights': who am I being racist against? Muslims come in all colors and nationalities. It's a faith, not a race. Same for the Jews.
We could go on posting blown-up Israeli buses and shot up Palestinian children etc. here but what good would come from it?
The 'truth' is that all people should have the 'rights' of free speech and faith. The Muslims rioting all over the world are hypocrites. They insist on the right to uncriticized faith they deny to all others. Or do you deny that the demonization of other faiths esp. the Jews is widespread in the Muslim world?
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 16, 2006 12:19AM
Excuse me...you're operating under a distinct disadvantage...you don't know me, and you can't read my mind. Exactly how am I being a bigot? The people on this board and elsewhere know I couldn't be a bigot and move in the circles I've moved for the past 30 years. I was just pointing out a 'truth' you'd rather cover up 'right' away, that there's a considerable element of hypocrisy in the actions of the Muslim protesters. NOT all Muslims. I seriously hope your reasoning skills and your reading comprehension improve soon. The Jews and Christians have been abiding countless smears and slanders by Muslims and for that matter secular liberal atheists without any rioting...because we live in an place and an age where freedom of speech and of the press are rights we hold dear in this society. If you don't agree with this, I suggest relocating to say Saudi Arabia or Sudan.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 16, 2006 12:33AM
"Glad this one is passing by the wayside" - almost IC

read the whole thread from the beginning and then let it go guys.

Love one Another.
pale ryder
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 16, 2006 12:58AM
So those of Jewish faith, christians, and any other group that is misrepresented by radical muslims should just stand by while their cultures are dragged through the mud? I think Stamina's cartoon hits the nail right in the head, without any exaggeration. Those that riot have a choice not to riot. If you can dish it, you should be able to take it....
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 16, 2006 07:07AM
The cartoon Stamina posted is not wilfully misrepresenting anything, it's a satire of current affairs. That's what political cartoonists do. Slightly alter a situation, or show it from an non-popular viewpoint in order to make a point.

Now - from what I've seen (and I have not seen the whole cartoon mind you), the original was more of a flat out racist attack with no humor. Not really the same situation here...
Translucent
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 16, 2006 09:00AM
My last input on this one.

Bottom line is: It is blasphemy in Islam to portrait an image of the prophet Muhammad, so the original cartoons attack a CORE BELIEF in the Muslim faith, which was undoubtfuly deliberate. How many riots have anyone seen by Muslims outraged over a cartoon depicting a negative image of a Muslim, despite how offensive it was???

Jews & Christians alike may feel "offended" by a given cartoon depicting them inna "offensive" way, but one is only "offended" if one permits it (trust me, I work with some ruff youth...). Feeling offended is having your PRIDE hurt. Now, having a CORE BELIEF OF YOUR FAITH directly attacked is a whooooolenother deal!

By NO MEANS am I condoning the riots. I condemn it. But it must be clear what these cartoons mean to Muslims. If it is, it becomes clear why some are reacting the way they are, and how this was exactly what the ones responsible for it wanted.

Guidance
Maconha
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 16, 2006 02:13PM
And where exactly is this core belief defined? In the Quoran? Or is it as Ann Coulter suggests above a relatively new thing?
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 16, 2006 02:57PM
The bottome line is that you have people living on the same plaent with entirely different worldviews. For the most part the masses get qalong, but on the fringes were these worldviews are grinding against one another we see problems. There is no rioting when Hamas claims that the Jews are the descendents of pigs. Most of the Muslim world is not rioting over these cartoons even though they are probably offended by them. Their is a reality, Jews think Christ was a false prophet, he commited blasphemy. The Christians think the The Prophet, commited blasphemy because he claimed that G-d spoke to him directly as a Prophet. Christians feel that if you do not follow Christ not only will you not enjoy the glory of the afterlife, but you will be punished. Beyond that not just punished but tortured for enernity. I feel that all things considered we have gotten along pretty well all things considered. This all begins and ends in Palestine, so long as they war in Palestine and Isreal this situation will only deteriorate. Remember Melchezidek.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 16, 2006 07:26PM
use arguement and reason to expose her not comparisons to Hitler. By the way if you really want to get her comparisons to Stalin are much better. He was much worse than Adolf
Mo-homo-ad
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 16, 2006 10:20PM
Nothing wrong with being bigoted against murdering scum.
F**k shitslam and the sub humans who kill for it.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 16, 2006 10:51PM
Mo-homo---

same for christian-slam and the same sub humans?? Seen? Self....
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 16, 2006 11:52PM
Blood of any form is not kosher for Jews, against the core of the faith. So why do Jews not riot and kill when the Muslim press (or the British press, as in one infamous cartoon) depicts Jews as drinking human blood or eating human flesh?
Tooth & Bites: so cartoons that go against the 'core' of what one believes should be strictly taboo, while cartoons that attack the 'core' of who and what a person IS (such as being a Jew), is fine & dandy with you? That's execrable and hypocritical to say the least.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 05:27AM
The Willie Lynch letter never existed.

--------------------------
Is Willie Lynch's Letter Real?
May 2004

Q: Is Willie Lynch's letter real? If it is real it is one of the most important documents related to African Americans.

-- Gloria Jenkins, Big Sandy, Texas

A: There are many problems with this document - not the least of which is the fact that it is absolutely fake.

I long ago stopped listening to sentences that begin with "The problem with black people is," or end with "and that's why black people can't get ahead now," which partly explains my initial indifference to the now-famous William Lynch Speech.

In the few years since the speech on how to train slaves first appeared, it has been cited by countless college students and a black member of the House of Representatives, along the way becoming the essential verbal footnote in barbershop analysis of what's wrong with black people. The rapper Talib Kweli laments on the song "Know That," "blacks are dyin'/how to make a slave/by Willie Lynch is still applyin'," and one professor at a Midwestern university made the speech required reading for her class. Of late, the frequency of its citations seems to be increasing - at least three people have asked me about it in the last month.

According to the speech's preface, Master Lynch was concerned enough with the fortunes of his slave-holding brethren in the American colonies to present a lecture on the bank of the James River, explaining how to keep unruly servants disunited. The old, he argued, should be pitted against the young, the dark against the light, the male against the female and so on. Such disunifying tactics "will control the slaves for at least 300 years," he guaranteed. And that, it seems, is why black people can't get ahead now.

As a historian, I am generally skeptical of smoking guns. Historical work, like forensic science, isn't some flashy field - it depends on the painstaking aggregation of facts that lead researchers to the most likely explanation, but rarely the only one. Slavery was an incredibly complex set of social, economic and legal relations that literally boiled down to black and white. But given the variation in size of farms, number of enslaved workers, region, crops grown, law, gender-ratios, religion and local economy, it is unlikely that a single letter could explain slave policy for at least 151 years of the institution and its ramifications down to the present day.

Considering the limited number of extant sources from 18th century, if this speech had been "discovered," it would've been the subject of incessant historical panels, scholarly articles and debates. It would literally be a career-making find. But the letter was never "discovered." Rather, it simply "appeared" on the Internet - bypassing the official historical circuits and making its way directly into the canon of American racial conspiratoria.

On a more practical level, the speech is filled with references that are questionable if not completely inaccurate. Lynch makes reference to an invitation reaching him on his "modest plantation in the West Indies." While this is theoretically possible - the plantation system was well established in the Caribbean by 1712 - most plantation owners were absentees who chose to remain in the colonizing country while the day-to-day affairs of their holdings were run by hired managers and overseers. But even assuming that Mr. Lynch was an exception to this practice, much of the text of his "speech" remains anachronistic. Lynch makes consistent reference to "slaves" - which again is possible, though it is far more likely people during this era would refer to persons in bondage simply as "Negroes." In the first paragraph, he promises that "Ancient Rome would envy us if my program is implemented," but the word "program" did not enter the English language with this connotation until 1837 - at the time of this speech it was used only to reference a written notice for theater events.

Two paragraphs later he says that he will "give an outline of action," for slave-holders; the word "out-line" had appeared only 50 years earlier and at that time was only used as an artistic term meaning a sketch - it didn't convey its present meaning until 1759. Even more damning is his use of the terms "indoctrination" and "self-refueling" in the next sentence. The first word didn't carry its current connotation until 1832; the second didn't even enter the language until 1811 - a century after the purported date of Lynch's speech. More obviously, Lynch uses the word "Black," with an upper-case "B," to describe African Americans more than two centuries before the word came to be applied as a common ethnic identifier.

In some popular citations, Lynch has also been - inexplicably - credited with the term "lynching," which would be odd since the speech promises to provide slave-holders with non-violent techniques that will save them the expense of killing valuable, if unruly, property. This inaccuracy points to a more basic problem in understanding American history: the violence directed at black people in America was exceptional in the regard that it was racialized and used to reinforce political and social subordination, but it was not unique. Early America was incredibly violent in general - stemming in part from the endemic violence in British society and partly from the violence that tends to be associated with frontier societies. For most of its history, lynching was a non-racial phenomenon - in fact, it most often directed at white people. The term "Lynch law" was derived from the mob violence directed at Tories, or British loyalists, just after the American Revolution. While there is disagreement about the precise origins of the term - some associate it with Charles Lynch, a Revolution-era Justice-of-the-Peace who imprisoned Tories, others see it as the legacy of an armed militia founded near the Lynche River or the militia captain named Lynch who created judicial tribunals in Virginia in 1776 - there is no reference to the term earlier than 1768, more than half a century after the date given for the speech.

Given the sparse judicial resources (judges were forced to travel from town-to-town hearing cases, which is where we get the term "judicial circuit"winking smiley and the frequency of property crimes in the early republic, lynching was often seen as a form of community justice. Not until the 1880s, after the end of Reconstruction, did "lynching" become associated with African Americans; gradually the number of blacks lynched each year surpassed the number of whites until it became almost exclusively directed at black people late in the century. (Nevertheless, between 1882 and 1944, Tuskegee University recorded 3,417 lynchings with black victims -- and 1,291 lynchings with white ones.)

The Willie Lynch speech would seem to give a quick-and-easy explanation of the roots of our much-lamented "black disunity." You could make similar arguments about the lingering effects of a real historical document like the 1845 tract, "Religious Instruction of Negroes" - written by a proslavery Presbyterian minister - or the British practice of mixing different African ethnicities on slave ships in order to make communication - and therefore rebellion - more difficult. But this too is questionable - it presumes that whites, or any other diverse group, do not face divisive gender issues, generation gaps and class distinctions. Willie Lynch offers no explanation for the white pro-lifer who guns down a white abortion-provider or white-on-white domestic violence. He does not explain political conflicts among different Latino groups or crime in Asian communities. Unity is not the same as unanimity and in the end, black people are no more disunited than any other group of people - and a lot more united than we give ourselves credit for.

May 2004 response by William Jelani Cobb, professor of history, Spelman College

Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 05:30AM
The editor of the newspaper that printed the cartoons DENIED similar attempts by the cartoonists to poke fun of Jesus because, "it would offend to many people." Dumb ass.

Wasn't it Muslims who blew up the 2,000 year old Buddha statues in Afghanistan? And there pissed about a cartoon?!

Geez...

Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 02:49PM
actually no, it was the Taliban, who have their own brand of Islam. This is like saying the behavior of the KKK is representative of the Followers of Christ worldwide.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 03:29PM
Yes, and it was MUSLIMS who terrorized and destroyed the thriving Buddhist civilizations of Northern India long ago as well. Pretty much destroyed Buddhism in India, the land of its birth. Muslims also were nice enough to let Christians and Jews ("people of the Book"winking smiley practice as long as they paid a tax, but would kill any other person (Buddhist, Hindu, etc) unless they converted to Islam.

Listen, I have friends that are Muslim, and there are many good Muslim people, just like there are many good Christian, etc. BUT I am getting pretty tired of do-gooders making excuses and softening up Islam like it just this flowery religion of peace. It's not. Sure, Muhammad instituted jihad strictly as a defense against aggressors, but towards the end of his life they were militarily conquering many, many peoples, and that includes killing pagans etc. Those people violently protesting and going on jihads as just as wrong as Bush and his Christian terrorist tactics. Same goes for racist Israel and the violent Palestinians. STOP THE STUPIDITY. STOP THE VIOLENCE.

Personally, as of late, I am gettting pretty sick of monotheistic religions calling others pagans, hating homos, not giving a **** about the environment (oh no! gaya worship!! lol)...just close-mindedness in general. I would even extend that to many Rastas as well...burning fiyah on everything they fear or do not agree with.



Post Edited (02-17-06 07:30)
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 03:44PM
close mindedness, that is an interseting way to put it. Of course your mind is closed to what you percieve as wickedness. Just like your mind is closed to all of the practices you just listed above. It is like when people say be tolerant when that just begs the question. This often comes up with the issue of abortion. People say well if you disagree with abortion that is your choice, but others may have a different view you need to be tolerant of the views of others. This type of response completly misses the point. The anti abortion person is saying that this is not a matter of choice it is murder and no one should tolerate murder. Either way tolerance is not what is needed. If it is murder than it should not be tolerated, if it is not then why should acceptable actions that are not immoral need someone to tolerate them.

PS it was humans that did everything that you listed above, this we can be sure of. But alas it is not feasable to say that you ar getting tired of humans because you are one. Surely you are not getting tired of yourself?
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 04:44PM
I get pretty tired of humans and all their conceptual-thinking crap, lol...and yes, I do get tired of myself when I get cranky and mad and yell at some one, etc. Later reflecting on it, I think, "What a dumbass I am for reacting that way..." I am no exception, that's for sure.

papa ray
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 04:46PM
Oh well, my 2 cents worth:

1. Of all people (!) , General George Patton in his travels in North Africa, observed
that despite the rich history of achievement in Islamic cultures, that indeed very little progress had occurred since the 8th century. His own conclusion was this is a result of a culture and religion that subjectgated and oppressed its women. I agree.

2. It is very, very clear (from Iran, to Saudi Arabia, to the United States)
world leaders today are quite willing to use religious turmoil for political
ends, with no understanding(or caring) of the eventual, horrific results.

3. I've said it before, and say it again---don't EVER trust a man who insists
'GOD TALKS TO ME' by way of justifying his actions. My life experience and
observation tells me this is the m**********r who is going to f*** you over and
says 'God Told Me To!' This goes for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, or Pat Robertson.

As someone who has listed 'devout musician' as my religious preference for
35 years, that's my 2 Cents....
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 05:18PM
As far as abortion is concerned...I have children, and I love life, therefore I must be pro-life, but politcally I would like to see abortion kept legal for the simple fact that I do want to see girls have to go to some trailer in the desert and get a vacuum used on them. Face it, abortion has been practiced since the beginning of civilization, literally, and anybody who thinks they can disporve that I would like to see the evidence. It isn't about tolerance, it's about the practicality of legalized, safe, abortion. I am no bleeding-heart liberal, but neither do I want to see the other ugly option if abortion was illegal.

Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 05:27PM
J-72 for the sake of arguement so has muder, incest, and pretty much every type of wickedness of the face of the earth. I do not disagree with your conclusion, but the logic is flawed. The same logic could be used to justify slavery, racism, sexism or anything else.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 05:32PM
--> 'devout musician' as ... religious preference ...

cool, I like dat!!! well sehd



--
blessid love
ras danny
higher reasoning reggae time
KBOO Portland, Full Strength Community Radio
*Love is a net that catches hearts like fish.*
-Muhammad Ali
*I don't like reggae, I love it*
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 05:34PM
Well Ninjacat, as you have already found, I am not much of a logical guy...just thinking out loud most of the time.

Appreciate the discussion though.

Translucent
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 05:45PM
"PS it was humans that did everything that you listed above..."

BOOOOMMM Ninja!!!

What part of the-barbaric-behavior-displayed-by-so-called-muslims do not come from Islam are some not overstanding? It's an aspect of human nature that can come under any heading whether be Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Capitalism, Communism, and so on... Please overstand that once and for all! All main religions ARE peacefull in essence.

"...His own conclusion was this is a result of a culture and religion that subjectgated and oppressed its women. I agree."

Papa, you often bring great insight to the board, but your agreement with this is based on ignorance. Educate yourself on the subject and you'll see that just the opposite is true. Respect.

Guidance
Maconha
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 05:53PM
Papakan check Guns Germs and Steel. Both the book and the Documentary, I think you might see that as far as Patton's comments it has little to nothing to do with religon. rather it has to do with the domestication of animals. The location of the animals that humans are able to domesticate. The disease resistance those people were able to build up and those who were not. Then last and not least the ability to harnes the powers of steel. This is why you see the world that you do.
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 06:29PM
that was harness
papa ray
Re: the cartoon controvery
February 17, 2006 07:55PM
Ninja, what's up. Yup, it actually was a comment by Patton on Islamic society.
I just felt it was a priecient comment. Tanslucent, was it my comment noting
my suspicious nature towards the Diety's self-appointed hit-men & schills
that struck you as ignorant? It is just in my life I have met and seen SO MANY
who either make religion a business, or a conduit & justification of their own
hatreds & fears. In my youth, I've sat up in churches w/preacher & flock who
preach pure ignorance, bigotry, and racial superiority----& it was so noxious,
by the age of 7 I was aware of what joke-bizness it wuz. Add to that decades of seeing the worst impulses of men foisted on mankind via their 'Faith', and I recognized what history has shown over and over: religion and bigotry walk hand in hand along the road of human suffering. So, I claim not Ignorance, but Experience.

And is it no surprise, those I've known that truly Live Up their religion and
make their best effort to help each one they met in life are the ones who never, ever wore their religion as self-righteous rainment?? Render your heart indeed.
Sadly, religion as well as patriotism are often the last refuge of scoundrels,
if not homicidal bastards. So it go....
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