Jews against Israel.

Jews against Israel. These cartoons from a righteous Jewish intellectual tell the truth.This man Finkelstein is a hero, a truth teller, a righteous man.

[www.normanfinkelstein.com]

"These cartoons from a righteous Jewish intellectual tell the truth."

Yeah, so let's kill off 1/3 of all the people who share your religious beliefs so that YOU TOO can enjoy the same "indiespensible ideological weapon'. That's assuming of course, you are still around....

What's your point, Daniel? Disputing the fact Israel uses and has used the Holocaust to advance its own imperialism in the desert?

bbbb- if you're into finkelstein - check out this link. It's a link to a debate between finkelstein and fmr israeli foreign minister schlomo ben ami. clink on "download mp3 audio of the entire debate."

[www.democracynow.org]

Anyone interested in a very informative debate between an zionist former israeli foreign minister and an outspoken critic of israeli foreign policy should check out this debate. Those who dont like amy goodman or democracy now! should still check it out - amy speaks very little during the whole debate.

"Those who dont like amy goodman or democracy now! "

What's wrong with Amy Goodman and Democracy now!?

No, but the comic strip i saw sort of implies that the Jews allowed the holocaust to happen so that they could use it for political gain in the same vein as how that 911 video implies that the US allowed (or even planed) that event to happen so as to advance their cause for a new world order.

While I am not a fan of 'faith-based nations', my guess is that most of the people in Israel would argue that the tactics they employ were forced upon them by the aggressions launched against them by their neighbors in the region.

Chi writes: "Israel uses and has used the Holocaust to advance its own imperialism in the desert"

Yeah, I agree with you... like battyman uses and had used the normal male's errection to advance its own anus imperialism.

Regarding Daniel's comment.

Although the holocaust was a great tragedy - Jews as a whole are better off because of it. The immense hatred for jews that lead to an attempt to wipe them off the face of the earth has resulted in a local superpower jewish state. Now they are free to disregard international law and perpetuate violence against the indigenous population while using the holocaust as an excuse. Israel is a nation founded on the displacement and perpetration of horrible violence against palestinians. They are quickly using up the sympathy that the world should rightly have regarding their atempted extermination. Two wrongs dont make a right - they make both parties guilty.
I certainly wouldnt argue that they allowed the holocaust to happen - however.



Post Edited (04-02-06 16:33)

zoki - I listen to democracy now every morning and love amy goodman. On occaision, I feel like she gets too worked up and does a shoddy job on her interviews. An example was her show the other day - interviewed michael gordan and general something or other about a book they wrote about iraq war called cobra two. At the end of the interview she asked michael gordan a loaded question and gives him half a second to respond. I cringed when i heard her do that - poor journalism.

I know a lot of people that just cant stand her alarmist point of view - no matter how accurate it is.

Don Julio, "the immense hatred for jews that lead to an attempt to wipe them off the face of the earth" are flowing through this thread too.

Btw, holocaust wasn't "a great tragedy" as you put it, it was well-organized mass extinction of particular group of people, marked by their race and blood origin.

Although I agree with you that "two wrongs don't make a right" and that Israel has perpetrated some terrible violence, I am finding it a little difficult to understand how I am better off not having known what it was like to have Grandparents, uncles and the like that others enjoy.....

You two are right, zoki and daniel - I allow my dislike for what the israeli goverment does to cloud my mind and say "jews do this" and "jews do that". I need to recall that "jews" as people are largely independent of "jews" as a political entity.

I have no problem with jewish people - I wouldnt treat someone who describes themselves as jewish any different than any other person.

and daniel - I merely was attempting (though poorly executed) to point out the irony that an attempt to rid the world of jewish people lead to the formation of a heavily armed jewish state and produced the opposite results. It should have been a comment on the futility of hatred and violence and not a comment on the fortune or misfortune of israel to have been subject to methodical extermination.

i hope my matisyahu newsclip posts werent resposible for the flood of all these threads with shades of antisemitic bs. most all of my dad's side of the family tree in holland was exterminated by nazis. i really dont like the vibes of all this at all. ras a

a - dont mistake dislike for the policies of the nation of israel with antisemitism. That's exactly what Dr. Finkelstein talks about - why the political nation of isreal doesnt't like his books.

and daniel - upon further thought-
in a way - you are better off, assuming from your previous post that you are of jewish ancestry. For one, you now have a strong nation that would immediately grant you citizenship. Second, if you lived in a nation whose government began exterminating people of jewish lineage, you have a nation who has both political and miltary sway to stick up for you.

I say this not wishing to disregard or diminish any suffering you or any other have had to endure as a result of the holocaust. My comments in this thread about the nation of israel should be taken as comments about a political entity. I want only to love all the peoples of this world, and it is this love that causes me to grieve over the actions of Israel today.

With all due respect Don Julio, your further thoughts make no sense. First, I live in amerika, a country that "disregards international law and perpetuates violence against indigenous populations", while keeping the people living in fear of terrorism. As one who does not practice, why in the world would I want to live in a Middle-Eastern Country that does virtually the exact same thing? The biggest difference that I see between the two is that the fears that Israelis live with is real.... ...

Second, IFamerika started exterminating jews, don't you think that virtually every other (non-exterminating) country would accept me? That's how many parents got into this country... And no, i take no offense to your lambasting the policies of Israel's government and hope that you take no offense at my lambasting the policies of Israel and the United States!!!

your thoughts all make sense. I suppose my comment doesnt make much sense to make to an american, where you are safer from violence than people in Israel and where the current political environement certianly doesnt indicate any risk of extermination.

I was kind of making the statement without assuming which country you live in. I do believe that the worldwide population of people with jewish ancestry is now safer, and that there are such people that could now more easily flee a country that is implementing antisemetic policies and lead a safer and better life in a country that will automatically take them.

The United States state department was aware of the location of gas chambers being used to exterminate jews - and refused to bomb them. That would not be allowed to happen to jewish people in today's modern political environment, whereas such genocide as is occuring in Sudan is allowed for years while pleas for aid fall on deaf ears.

politix in the state of israel is one thing. i'm talking about the matisyahu posts
getting responses that are going into things about the jews control the media
someone mentioned the holocaust etc,,,, again its little shades and hints in the posts not outright words that, to me, are revealing some antisemetic vibes,..
am i being paranoid? whatever. its my feeling i'm getting on this board. instead of rating the guy on his music period its streaching into some other sh..tuff. in my opinion. ras a

don julio wrote:


> That would not be allowed to happen to jewish people
> in today's modern political environment
>
dj that's exactly what they said in Europe in the late 1920s and 1930s...

...right now in Europe alone esp. France and Russia synagogues are being burned, Jewish cemeteries are being vandalized and Jews are being beaten and stabbed...so imho no, Jews are not safer than they've ever been throughout the world...



Post Edited (04-02-06 21:30)

Hey, somewhat off-topic, have any of you heard of the Bantu Jews who live in Zimbabwe? or the Rasupe (Afrikan Jews who live in and around South Afrika).? Also what about the lost tribe of Elijah in souther India. Jews are spread across the globe(Thank Jah), and they are not all represented by the state of Israel. The current Israel is being run by Ashkenazi Jews(European descent), which in turn are a puppet for the U.S.. The current Israel is basically another U.S. state that's is in the middle east. In Bush's head I'm sure the Palestinian people are just like the Iraqi's, another people to exploit and destroy. Mark my words: There is no real zionist leader standing up for Israel or the Jewish people merely puppets who are looking out for there own heads.

Also, in response to the comment" Jews are better off because of the holocaust". So what about Afrikans? Are they better off because of slavery? Think about that long and hard. Remember, there is a genocide happening right now in Sudan. People are starving all over east Afrika, AIDS is spreading at a more advanced rate than anywhere else in the world. African-Americans have affirmative action, BET is one of the most watched stations on TV today in the US. Black people in the US and in other places in the world are dominating sports, music, and dance. Scholarships are being handed out to up and coming athletes who are of Afrikan descent. Brazil's championship world cup team(predominantly of Afrikan descent ) is ranked number one in the world. Is there any country in Afrika right now that can claim all the successes that their diaspora can so proudly claim today? I don't think so. Name one and you will have changed my views completely.
The Jews were slaves to Pharoah in Egypt, Moses led them to aretz canaan where they thrived and prospered, after capturing Jericho. It is not without blood and tears that a poeple survive and thrive. As a human race we have and continue to suffer. I'll end with this, one of my firm beliefs."What doesn't kill you will make you stronger, if you rise to the occasion."

Much luv, (Ras-Mosis).

what I find funny is how people are so critical of Zionism when it is exactly what reggae music advocates.

Nice post rasmosis, food for thought...except that it's not quite true that Israel is being led purely by Ashkenazim. Many of the Israeli leaders are actually of Iraqi, Iranian or other Mideastern extraction who fled persecution of Jews in their native lands.

a,

You make some very good points, what I find to be the most ironic is that people seem to be judging the people of Israel as the government. I would hope that this is not the case especially coming from a bunch of Americans. I would say that there is a lot of Anti Semetic vibes being tossed about, and I do not mean people who just don't like Matis. People who talk about how the jews control the media and they are all collaborating to do this and that. This is just not logical thinking. Everyone knows it is the blacks who control the media and is the jews who control the diamond trade. Get your sterotypes correct.

People love the bling of Gold and, as a simeon, that's my tribes my color, but
when you think about what people go thru to dig it up i'm not down w/ that. a


DeBeers Diamond Monopoly Poised to Re-Enter U.S. Market, Faces New Scrutiny in Europe

De Beers signaled last year it might agree to plead guilty and pay a fine to settle allegations that date back to shortly after World War II when the Justice Department alleged that it fixed the price of industrial diamonds, which was followed with another suit in 1994.

"We have outstanding legal issues with the Department of Justice and the European Union, and we're working to resolve them," said Lynette Hori, the spokeswoman for DeBeers's diamond trading company. "The U.S. is the biggest market for diamond jewelry - accounting for 50 percent of global retail jewelry sales - and we would really, really like to resolve these issues," she said.

I'll bet.

After 10 years of inactivity in the case, the court in January scheduled an arraignment and plea hearing for March 11th. DeBeers and General Electric were indicted in 1994, accused of fixing prices in the $500 million industrial diamond market. Federal officials alleged that GE and DeBeers, which at the time controlled about 80 percent of the market, told each other about price increases in advance.

A federal judge dismissed charges against General Electric in December 1994, saying the government had failed to prove its case. The suits were filed in Columbus because GE's industrial diamond business was headquartered in the Columbus suburb of Worthington. Industrial diamond is sold to diamond tool manufacturers, who use it to make cutting and polishing tools used in a variety of manufacturing and construction applications.

But, prosecution of DeBeers has proven difficult for the past decade because U.S. officials have no jurisdiction over the company, which is based in South Africa.

That hasn't stopped DeBeers from becoming one of the world's best-known brands and one of the biggest advertisers in the U.S., relentlessly linking diamonds to engagements, weddings and anniversaries with its "A Diamond is Forever" campaign. But DeBeers hasn't had a retail presence in America and its executives are subject to detention if they enter the country. DeBeers only has its own retail stores in London and Tokyo.

DeBeers's 1994 charge is still pending in U.S. District Court in Columbus, Ohio, where the Justice Department is looking for a guilty plea, which might be forthcoming, that a unit of DeBeers was part of the global price-fixing conspiracy with GE. Prosecutors said that they hadn't been given access to needed evidence overseas.

DeBeers's efforts to get the charge dropped were rebuffed by the Clinton administration and, initially, by the current Bush administration. But late last year, the company signaled that it might agree to plead guilty and pay a fine to end the suit, and those discussions are now at an advanced stage, according to people close to the talks.

U.S. officials over the years haven't been eager to help DeBeers because of its history of harsh labor conditions and support for South Africa's apartheid regime. But Justice Department officials apparently have concluded that - having lost their case against DeBeers's co-defendant GE in 1994 - they have little leverage to continue to exclude the company from the U.S. if it is willing to plead guilty, unconditionally, to the 10-year-old charge.

Meanwhile, the European Union is investigating sales tactics of the world's largest diamond dealer, even as its relations with U.S. regulators may be improving. Prompted by complaints of retail jewelers, the EU is probing DeBeers, which controls two-thirds of the world's rough diamond market.

The complaints arose after De Beers moved into the retail end of the diamond business. With emerging competition in the wholesale diamond business from companies like BHP Billiton and Rio Tino, which produce diamonds in Canada, De Beers has tried to become an upmarket jewelry brand through a retail joint venture with French luxury goods company LVMH. EU investigators are studying DeBeers's "supplier of choice" system, in which gems are sold only to a select few.

Jewish state was created when all land of our planet was divided between its nations. There was no land available for yet another state, even for the state who will protect survivors of holocaust. "Violence of Jewish state", wars and hatred of its Arab neighbours is nothing but consequence of that basic fact.

Think about this
How are Jews better off now taht the "state" they have been given by Amerikkka is one of the most unrestful, politically crazy and war burdened places in the world. There is constant struggle there. I do not feel that if I was persecuted Israel would be a safe place to go. I think Israel was some peoples idea of a good joke, like lets group them all here.. the devout christians, muslims and jews and eventually they will all kill eachother ..
just like putting a bunch of blacks in the ghetto and making guns and alcohol readily available.
where do you think Africans get all their guns to killl eachother? um.. the govt maybe?
its all a scheme devised by white privilegde

dont let them turn us against eachother, that is what they want.. divide and conquer



"It takes a whole village to raise a child" African Proverb

I'm confused. What race are Jews? Is it a religion. I know Jews who describe themselves as Caucasian. HOW CAN THEAT BE? What race was Rabbi Matthews who ran the Synagogue in Harlem? What is a Wasambara Jew from West Africa(race)? Confusion , delusion, lies, alla dem tings. Get it straight. Judaism is a religion not a race.jews run the gamit from Black to white and in between. How doe the Knessett look as far as representation of the varieties of colors?

Judism is a religon, but it is also a heritage. If it were not then how could the lineage be passed throught the mother? It is very confusing. Good point on the Knessett. I find it just astounding that people say that the Jewish peoples benefited from the Holocaust. You have 6 Million+ of your people incinerated in less than a decade and see how you feel about it. Did they get a state after WWS? YES. But this is no different than any other war. You act as though there was no historical basis for the establishment of Israel. Again, here we are in the U.S. talking about how bad Israel is, give back what you own to the native peoples of this land. Don't come up with excuses because if you are really oppossed to the snatching of other peoples land to establish a state of your own then how can you justify owning anything in this country? You have to be consistent. What is going on in Palestine is a crime, there should be no doubt about that, however there is a two State solution if it can be manifested. There is crimes against humanity being commited by both the State of Israel and by the Government of the Palestine. Murder on both sides.

israel doesnt want the two state solution. The two state solution involves giving up all their land in gaza strip, west bank and jerusalem. Israel will never agree to this. This is why Israel invaded lebanon and crushed the PLO, because the PLO wanted peace and wanted a two state settlement.

Their is murder on both sides - but I liken it to American invasion of Iraq. If your country was invaded and your people displaced/killed - would you bear arms? Perhaps not, but I certainly have more sympathy for the defenders than the aggressors.

Has anyone checked out my link near the beginning of this thread? Its a good debate, worth hearing.

Don,

I do not liken it to what is going on in Iraq because the US has never (meaning at no point in history) had a claim to Iraq. Secondly I am not talking about attacks on the Israeli soldiers, but the bus bombings that kill innocent people, little babies and old folks. Just like the Israeli airstrikes and incursions kill innocent people. If one is wrong then the other is as well.

To say that the PLO wanted peace is like saying that GWB invaded Iraq because he wants there people to have freedom. That may in fact have entered his mind, but it is a implication of the invasion and not the driver. The PLO is and was crooked that is why the people of Palestine tossed their asses out of power and brought in Hamas.

The people of Israel do want a two state solution that should be noted. Just like in the US the government often times does not follow the will of the people.

At the time of the israeli invasion of lebanon, the PLO had been honoring a cease fire despite numerous israeli violations. Representative of the whole situation is the event that brought israel into full scale war against lebanon: the attempted assasination of the Israeli ambassador to London. Despite Israeli intelligence knowing that this attempted assasination was made by the Palestinian national liberation movement (not the PLO) lead by arafat's oponent Abu Nidal, cheif of staff of israeli defense Rafael Eiten wanted to use this as an excuse to attack PLO. His quote : "Abu Nidal, abu shmidal. We need to screw PLO!" Israel then began to bomb refugee camps in lebanon.

I know this is nitpicky, and I agree that both sides are guilty of wrong. I've just never been the type that rooted for the superpower over the indigenous peoples. You can look at the numbers of casualties on both sides and see which country is the bully in this conflict.

Your right - The PLO is crooked - and they have stolen an astounding amount of money from their people. They were still the best candidate for being a partner for peace with israel. Most arab groups wouldn't even deal with them because they might accept Israel's right to exist.

I also think it is difficult to say that Israel had a claim over their current location. We're talking over two thousand years here. This may hold sway in a spiritual sense, but not politically.

"Most arab groups wouldn't even deal with them because they might accept Israel's right to exist. "

Therein lies the problem. You mentioned earlier that "israel doesnt want the two state solution", and from your posts I presume you mean the government of Israel as oppossed to the people. BUT you failed to mention that Palestine doesn't want a 2 state solution either, and from my perspective it's not just the government but also the Palestinians people that don't want such a solution.....

I know what you mean about the indig. people, I feel the same way. It is difficult to not see Israel as a bully when you see Palestinian children throwing rocks and Israeli soldiers firing rockets from a US made helicopter. But I would ask you this how is it any different when a Youth has a bomb strapped to him and he goes in and kills a bus load of people who are just going about there business trying to make a living for there families. I do not know too much about the transportation system over there, but if it is anything like it is over here it is not the most affluent who are riding the buses. What is the same over there and over here is that it is the people who pay the ultimate price for the policies of the government. Is there a et of circumstances that could put me on a bus with a bomb strapped to me? Yes of course. However I would agree that at that point I would not be concerned over politics and two state solutions my goal would be to kill and maime as many people as I could. forgive my spelling, but this is a type of psycosis that is brought on by being under the boot of another and watching the people you love suffer. It is not a means to achieve any political solution.

However whether or not it is 2,000 years later or not there is some claim whereas in Iraq you can go back 1,000,000 years and there is no claim that the US has over that land. Hamas does not (at least historically) want a two state solution. Syria does not want a two state solution, Iran does not want a two state solution.

I recently read a book called "The Fate of Zionism" by Arthur Hertzburg, very informative. The eighty four year old author has had a seat at the table during just about every major Jewish development of the twentieth century. He takes a middle path between the Israeli right wing and critics like Edward Said and Noam Chomsky. Highly reccomended.

The holocaust was not a solitary act against the Jews. They have been persecuted for since before Christ. The Jews were conquered by several war hungry tribes before they were captured into slavery by the Egyptians and persecuted by the Romans for refusing to pray to the golden eagle.

The Jews ancestory comes from the Gulf, their holy land is the same rich soil of Islam and Christianity. They were exiled from their land and scattered amongst the globe. Thru the centuries the Jews were targeted and preyed on as the scapegoats by politicians and bloodthirsty religious figures who were motivated to wipe the Jews out, usually for wealth or power.

For centuries, even up into the 1980's the Catholic Church still preached that the killers of Jesus were not Roman soldiers, but were Jews. In some parts of Eastern Europe, even today, enemies of the Jews publish that the Jewish faith is based on murdering and eating gentile children.

The holocaust was not the first time in centuries that the Jews were mass murdered. The inquisition mainly targeted Jews only a couple centuries before. After WW 2, The Jews were without homes as no country in the world was willing to give the culture a home.

So the world leaders carved a piece of worthless desert from the original ancerstoral home of the Jews and gave it back.

Now people are screaming in disbelief that they honor and respect the gift they received as a people and are willing to defend all borders against the same hate and intolerance that stripped them of their soil 20+ centuries ago.

I applaud the Jews for keeping their faith. Us Americans would scream insults and denounce our faith if we went thru a fraction of what the Jews went thru over the last 2000 years.

The hate propaganda on this thread is very similar to what I hear in California now regarding Mexican and South American immigrants, or what I used to hear about African Americans in the south.

Klocktower, you're right on time. Word up.

klocktower -

first - no one is advocating any hate anywhere in this thread. Your post, in referring to "The hate propaganda on this thread" is an excellent example of what Dr Finkelstein calls the new antisemetism. Anybody who criticisizes any aspect of israeli government policy or the zionest ethos is branded a hatemonger and frowned upon by all.

second - the nation of israel has gone further than defending their borders and has created illegal settlements in the west bank, gaza and jerusalem through ruthless and inhumane tactics.

Third - lets not get into ancient history. I've read enough of the old testament to know that israel was not a peace loving nation. They gave as good as they got. Just look at a celebrated story - the fall of the walls of jericho. We all know some songs about this story (good songs, i might add).

"When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys." Joshua 6:20-21

and daniel - the PLO before the lebanese invasion did want the two party solution. They were willing to recognize Israel's right to exist with peaceful borders.

ninjacat - It is certainly not my desire to stick up for anybody who straps a bomb on and kills even a soldier, much less a bus full of innocent people who may not even agree with their government.

This discussion has rekindled my desire to learn more about this conflict and ponder the substance of all your posts. thank you.

///The holocaust was not the first time in centuries that the Jews were mass murdered. The inquisition mainly targeted Jews only a couple centuries before. After WW 2, The Jews were without homes as no country in the world was willing to give the culture a home//

Kloktower -- Whilst Europe certainly has a long history of Anti Jewish hate -- why on earth does that then make it somehow "morally ok" for a lot of ( largely, but by no means exclusively, I acknowledge ) European Ashkenazi Zionists to run roughshod over the Middle East, radically rearranging the map as thy go, kicking any body who disagree with them? Your argument is nonsense, and whiningly self centred. Grow up!

No one on this thread is for a second doubting the depths of despair caused by centuries of European on Jew hate -- however, acknowledging the pain of Jewish history does NOT make what Israel is doing even vaguely acceptable....I don't recognize claims of present day Zionists to that land at all --

Sure, Jews have every right to be in Palestine -- but on the terms of the DOMINANT population, which is only fair, just as white South Africans have a right to be in South Africa, BUT only on the terms of the dominant population, a people they displaced..... Israel MUST go down eventually, just as Rhodesia and apartheid era South Africa did....

///So the world leaders carved a piece of worthless desert from the original ancerstoral home of the Jews and gave it back. ///

What is this nonsense? Worthless desert? You reveal your sense of misguided superiority and innate racism/colonial mental attitude in those very words! Worthless to whom, I might ask? C'mon, act with some dignity! Have you been reading clowns like Elie Wiesel, Joan Peters, Leon Uris et al? Give me a break....Next thing you'll be saying is "there is no such thing as Palestinian people", and then you'll come out with the "Land without a people for a people without a land" Euro centric crap....Have some dignity man.....

//// are willing to defend all borders against the same hate and intolerance that stripped them of their soil 20+ centuries ago. ///

Yes, but not all Jewish people are ethnically from Israel....Many Jewish anthropologists /academics cite Ashkenazi as NOT originating anywhere vaguely near Israel, but as being descendents of Khazar tribes from the Caucasus region who converted to Judaism, hence the fact that Shephardim Jews look very similar ( mostly ) to other Arabs of the region whilst most Ashkenazim look JUST LIKE any other Pole, Russian or Ukranian....

///I applaud the Jews for keeping their faith. Us Americans would scream insults and denounce our faith if we went thru a fraction of what the Jews went thru over the last 2000 years.//

I don't have any argument with you at all here....but what on earth is your point? Is your point that somehow then, Jewish people from Brooklyn, Lithuania, Latvia, Krakow, Addis Ababa etc ( who may -- or equally so -- actually may NOT have any true origin in that little part of the Middle East ) are being somehow "faithful and true" to their religion by robbing and pillaging the land of other people? Give me a break! You are blaming Arabs, then, for the centuries of hideous European on Jew hate? Is that the thrust of your argument? Again, have some decency dignity man, and grow up.... Because,the enforcement of the fake state of Israel -- is a punishment to Arabs first and foremost, who hadn't anything to do with the Holocaust.

//The hate propaganda on this thread is very similar to what I hear in California now regarding Mexican and South American immigrants, or what I used to hear about African Americans in the south.///

You sound like a spoilt child who is whining and weeping because others choose to differ with him and simply say "no." -- this precisely what you selfish Israel supporters need, people to differ with you -- people who won't be silenced by the disgraceful and over used "anti Semite" smear....

To call someone an Anti Semite is a serious smear -- in fact there is not one single sentence in this entire thread which is anti Semitic. But you love to call it so to shame people into silence when they criticise the extreme selfishness and violence of the phoney state of Israel.... And it is irresponsible too, because by supporting the "state" of Israel, which is so obviously a sham, you anger the nation you robbed it from, and you anger his allies, who then blame us ( USA and Europe ) for turning a blind eye to rampant injustice....

You should be ashamed of yourself for using a very real tragedy, one of the most appalling crimes of humanity -- The utter horrors of the Holocaust/Shoah, the abominable culmination of the vilest European on Jew hate -- to hide behind and silence people.

You, and other like you, should hang your head in shame.

I leave you Israel supporters with a final thought to stop your relentless and preposterous "anti Semite" ( yaawnn ) smears --

I sincerely hope most of you who read this thread were anti apartheid era South Africa, and anti colonial Rhodesia ( both incidentally, close friends and allies of Israel in their heyday, check your history ). Ok, you were? If so -- did that make you ANTI WHITE CHRISTIAN?

Of course not! It made you anti the injustice perpetrated by a foreign power on unjustly settled and stolen land.

Wake up!

Being virulently anti Israel DOES NOT immediately make one anti Semitic....that is such a dull, tired old selfish smear, and an insult to the very real suffering of previous generations of Jews....

//The hate propaganda on this thread is very similar to what I hear in California now regarding Mexican and South American immigrants, or what I used to hear about African Americans in the south.///

I just re read these lines of yours...To be honest, you should be truly ashamed to compare the suffering of African slaves to the present day "prejudice" against the "state" of Israel....Have some dignity man.

//Author: Ninjacat (---.nike.com)
Date: 04-03-06 11:17

what I find funny is how people are so critical of Zionism when it is exactly what reggae music advocates.//

Well, laugh all you like Ninjacat, but it only shows your ignorance and lack of reading -- Zionism is a huge topic to discuss in a few lines, so I won't attempt it here, but needless to say Thedore Herzl, the modern founder of Zionism as it has largely unfolded and manifested in the 20th century has NOTHING in common whatsoever with what most of us envisage "Zionism" to be as it manifests in reggae. Your suggestion is, simply, preposterous.

Like many on this board, I have listened to reggae/roots/dub/ska etc for nearly 35 years, and have never yet met a follower who intepreted an understanding of "Rasta Zionism" -- metaphorical or literal -- as having anything in common whatsoever with the land grabbers from Latvia, Krakow, Addis Abbaba et al that we see in full swing in Israel.

Preposterous.

[en.wikipedia.org]

DDDD - It's interesting that you post that wikipedia link, because it largely refutes your argument in your post about Askenzi jews being descendants of khazars. The following is a quote from your wikipedia post, I know its long, bear with me people:

"Some historians, and most famously the non-historian novelist Arthur Koestler (in The Thirteenth Tribe), have proposed that Jewish Khazars are the ancestors of most or all Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews, but the idea is controversial and is not supported by mainstream researchers. Recent genetic studies appear to demonstrate that Middle Eastern elements dominate the Ashkenazi male line (see, e.g., Y-chromosomal Aaron), but that the female line appears to have a substantially different history. Some have argued this suggests Middle Eastern men marrying into local European communities [5]meaning that Ashkenazim are either not related to Jewish Khazars or that Jewish Khazars represent only a small element of Ashkenazi ancestry rather than the dominant element suggested by Koestler. The theory for the most part is considered to have been widely discredited. Some historians and scientists recognize the need to specifically test the Khazar theory, rather than generalizing based on studies of other non-Khazar populations.[6]

Another criticism that has been levelled against Koestler's work is that he largely appropriated his history from such sources as D.M. Dunlop, sometimes without proper attribution. Moreover, it has been pointed out that his more speculative second half (discussing his theories about Ashkenazi descent) is largely unsupported; to the extent that Koestler referred to place-names and documentary evidence his analysis has been described as a mixture of flawed etymologies and misinterpreted primary sources.

Other critics of the Khazar-Ashkenazi theory have stated that the prime motive for even the small degree of acceptance of these ideas is because they have become political and anti-Zionist in nature. The Khazar theory has been adopted by many anti-Zionists, especially in the Arab world; such proponents of the theory argue that if Ashkenazi Jews are primarily Khazar in origin, then they would be outside the scope of God's promise of Canaan to Israelites as recorded in the Bible. This ignores, of course, the fact that the Biblical promise explicitly includes converts, and the fact that over half of Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi. Some have countered that such charges of a political motive are not relevant to the core of the argument; in any event, Koestler himself was emphatically pro-Zionist based upon secular considerations."

Let me make it clear, I dont know **** about this khazar-ashkenazi argument one way or another. The only thing I've ever read about it is your wikipedia link, which does not put your theory in a positive light. I would simply recomment thoroughly reading your links before you post them because you never know - they may refute your argument.

That being said, I largely agree with your points in the above four posts (minus the hostility and insulting). Ninjacat's statement about zionism and reggae music has been rolling around in my head since I first read it. I cant recall ever hearing a reggae song calling for the removal, killing, and torture of indigenous peoples so they can go home to zion.

Which brings me to something no one has mentioned in this thread that is another major strike against Israeli zionism ever being seen as a positive movement; torture. The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel, an Israeli independant human rights organization, estimates that during the intifada (1987-1993) security forces interrogated and tortured approximately 23,000 palestinians. These are the most conservative of the reasonable estimates. Israel even had legalized torture until 1999. Many zionists still call for torture, and despite world opinion, world law, and even israeli law, torture persists in large scale in Israel. They even detain and torture kids.

check out this link to B'tselem - a respected israeli human rights organization that covers both israeli and palestinian vilations of human rights. This is a link to a number of publications they have done on torture in israel. check the first publication on torture of minors. In it are ten testimonials of children aged 14-17 getting severely beaten in an attempt to withdraw confessions for such things as throwing stones.

[www.btselem.org]

DDDD

My personal experiences have not taken me to modern day Israel or to 1700's Africa. So I can't compare the two. What I can compare is the racism I have experienced.

Whats your point. Humanity blossomed from one well. Cite whatever you want, its all chronological. What are we going to do-bring everyone back to Africa and let everyone carve up the world again?

My point was this: Israel is a religion based society. They went thru trials and terminations for such an extended period of time, most people today can't understand it. And I have to wonder if American Jews today would have the faith to not renounce their religion if they were staring Naziism in the face. I don't know.


DDDD, you got a big pretentious chip on your shoulder. I'm a reasonable man, but your patronizing tone pissed me off. So screw you for trying to turn this into a "race" thing. I never said anything about slavery, have not tried to compare the plight of Israel with that of African slaves. I have all my dignity. You have lost 10% of yours for trying to flame this board into a race issue.

DDDD,
The suggetion of zionism in Rastafarian belief is not preposterous, and Ninjacat does say something there.
Zionism crosses over in many ways, but one in particular...
What about the falasha?

greetings to all,
my only understanding of the Falasha comes from the fine film Falasha:Exile of the Black Jews.
After an extended campaign the state of Israel flew multiple plane loads of Falasha (Ethiopian Jews) from Addis Ababa to Tel Aviv.
Definitely a good choice for anyone interested in Reggae, Biblical links and Ethiopia. Some good mention of Jah Jah and the relationship of his government to the Falasha as compared to the "communist" government that followed.

[www.netflix.com]

all in all, it reinforces some of the points made here previously:
1. Yiddish is a language
2. Jewish is a religion
3. Israel is a state with a large powerful military and economic means
4. Zion is a concept or vision.

!Not understanding and specifying these differences leads confusion and claims of anti semitism!

For example, to be opposed the actions of the Mossad(Israeli CIA) is different than being and anti-semetic.

Another example is Jewish peace groups in Israel that oppose their government's continued illegal activities.

Also take for instance, when the Mormons came to Utah. Their concept of Zion was realized in the deep canyons, fresh water and red rocks of the area. To this day Zion is a place in Utah.
No dock for The Black Star Liner. But Zion for some Mormons.

gotta keep it separated.

boom bless and world wide dis-armament,
JT

yes junior - good post. thanks for the movie recommendation - looks interesting.

check out the foreign film "paradise now"...great insight into the situation (with a love plot intertwinded, of course)...arabic with english subtitles...af flick worth your time, i actually stayed awake thorugh it while sipping the chalice!

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Acceptance Speech for the 1997 Alan Award
Mildred D. Taylor

Many years ago when I first started writing the stories told by my family about our family history and about neighbors and friends and the community in which my family lived, I envisioned presenting an aspect of American history which during my own childhood was not presented in the history books. I envisioned presenting a family united in love and self-respect, and parents, strong and sensitive, attempting to guide their children successfully without harming their spirits, through the hazardous maze of living in a discriminatory society. I wanted readers to know this family, based upon my own, and I wanted them to feel akin to them and to walk in their shoes. The presentation at the National Council of Teachers of English Convention of the 1997 ALAN Award signifies to me that perhaps I have achieved some of these goals I set so long also, and I sincerely thank you for this great recognition.

Writing the books based upon stories told by my family has been a long journey from my childhood to receiving the ALAN Award, but I have always tried to stay on course. From Song of the Trees to The Well I have attempted to present a true picture of life in America as older members of my family remember it, and as I remember it in the days before the civil rights movement. In all of the books I have recounted not only the joy of growing up in a large and supportive family, but my own feelings of being faced with segregation and bigotry. Writing these feelings was never easy, but when my first books were published, those feelings and the history I presented were understood. Yes, people would say. We remember how it was.

Today, however, younger generations have no experience of that time when signs over restrooms doors, signs over water fountains, in restaurant windows and hotels said: WHITE ONLY, COLORED NOT ALLOWED. Today's generation of children, as well as many of their parents and teachers, have not had to endure such indignities or even worse aspects of racism that once pervaded America, and I am grateful for that. But, unfortunately, as we all know racism still exists and is growing.

In the writing of my books I have tried to present not only a history of my family, but the effects of racism, not only to the victims of racism but also to the racists themselves. I have recounted events that were painful to write and painful to be read, but I had hoped they brought more understanding. Now, however, there are those who think that perhaps my recounting are too painful, and there are those who seek to remove books such as mine from school reading lists. There are some who say the books should be removed because the "N" word is used. There are some who say such events as described in my books and books by others did not happen. There are those who do not want to remember the past or who do not want their children to know the past and who would whitewash history, and these sentiments are not only from whites.

In Texas recently a Hispanic father went to the school board and asked thatThe Well be removed from school reading lists because the "N" word was used. In Orange County, California a black mother objected to her son reading Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry in a class where he was the only African-American, and the school’s solution to her objection was to seat her son in the hall while the book was being read. In a Northern state, a black church questioned a book like Roll of Thunder being presented in the schools to its children.

I am hurt that any child would ever be hurt by my words. As a parent I understand not wanting a child to hear painful words, but as a parent I do not understand not wanting a child to learn about a history that is part of America, a history about a family representing millions of families that are strong and loving and who remain united and strong, despite the obstacles they face.

In the writing of my most recent work, titled The Land, I have found myself hesitating about using words that would have been spoken in the late 1800s because of my concern about our "politically correct" society. But just as I have had to be honest with myself in the telling of all my stories, I realize I must be true to the feelings of the people about whom I write and true to the stories told. My stories might not be "politically correct," so there will be those who will be offended, but as we all know, racism is offensive.

It is not polite, and it is full of pain.

It is through you and through your great efforts that, if my books or books like mine are presented in the classroom, the children will be prepared for what they read. Before reading any of my books to my own eight-year-old, I talk to her about what life was like when I was a child and when her grandparents and great-grandparents were children; and we continue to talk as the story unfolds. I want only the best for my child in her learning of the past and of her heritage, just as we all want the best for all the children. I thank you for recognizing my books as a contribution to children. I shall always treasure your faith in my work, and shall always treasure the 1997 ALAN Award.