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New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship

Posted by Ninjacat 
New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 10:51AM
WASHINGTON (AP) -- National Geographic unveiled an ancient manuscript Thursday that may shed new light on the relationship between Jesus and Judas, the disciple who betrayed him.

The papyrus manuscript was written probably around 300 A.D. in Coptic script, a copy of an earlier Greek manuscript.

It was discovered in the desert in Egypt in the 1970s and has now been authenticated by carbon dating and studied and translated by biblical scholars, National Geographic announced.

Unlike the four gospels in the Bible, this text indicates that Judas betrayed Jesus at Jesus' request.

The text begins "the secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot."

The key passage comes when Jesus tells Judas "you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothed me."

This indicates that Judas would help liberate the spiritual self by helping Jesus get rid of his physical flesh, the scholars said.

The manuscript was first mentioned in a treatise around 180 A.D. by a bishop, Irenaeus of Lyon, in what is now France. The bishop denounced the manuscript as differing from mainstream Christianity and said it produced a fictitious story.

There were several gospels in circulation at the time in addition to the four in the Bible. When those gospels were denounced, it was thought that believers hid them away.

What scholars refer to as the gospel of Judas was kept by a group called the Gnostics, who believed that the way to salvation was through secret knowledge given by Jesus to his inner circle.

National Geographic said the author believed that Judas Iscariot alone understood the true significance of Jesus' teachings.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 10:55AM
interesting... is it worth betraying the leader to save the people... of course!
TR-808
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 11:06AM

OLD LIGHT SHED ON MESSAGE BOARD:

This message board is a place for people to reason about reggae music and the SNWMF. Please be respectful of others and refrain from offensive posts, flaming or discussions of illegal activities. Any such posts will be removed, and repeat offenders will be prohibited from posting to this message board.

--
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 11:10AM
TR 808 mind your own business. The roots of Reggae Music is the lineage of the King of Kings Lord of Lords, this is Jah business if you can't speak Jah Business of this board than this board is a waste of time. How hard is it to read and post on topics that intrest you and ignore those where it does not.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 11:31AM
Big up Ninjacat! keep up the research and stand firm. Give thanks for the insight. Don"t let anyone slow you down. Your post was not offensive or illeagal. This is true history, thanks for shedding some light on the message board. JAH RASTAFARI BLESS!!!!!!
Iron
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 12:06PM
What? Reading the National Geographic ain't research. And the deranged scribblings of a few fundamentalist wierdos ina desert 400 years (at least) after the death of the historical Yeshua is true history either, interesting though it is.

Jah business it is not.
TR-808
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 12:10PM

no ninja. although intertwined, rasta and reggae are not one and the same.

the roots of reggae is rocksteady, ska, calypso, mento, gospel, rhythm and blues, jazz, and more.

reggae was not born from rasta. reggae was born as a dance, for the dancehall. reggae is a type of music and it does not require lyrics.

it was rasta that adopted reggae music and layed their message onto it.

rasta = message. reggae = music.

i'm not judging that here, just trying to lay out some facts for you.


> How hard is it to read and post on topics that intrest you
> and ignore those where it does not.


it's not hard at all. i'll be finished in here then.


--
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 12:37PM
propaganda...Why is this coming out now? Why all the secrecy? What is the goal of Natl Geo. and the Swiss Maecenas Foundation? Who are all these "wealthy patrons of the arts" who have decided to grace us with this "revolutionary discovery"?! Love all, trust few.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 12:45PM
Its coming out to make a few bucks to tie in with the Da Vinci Code movie.

The truth is out there; it doesn't have to be interesting though!
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 01:06PM
Rather this is true or not is unimportant as it does not contradict any fundamental christian beliefs. In fact I kinda like this statement "you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothed me." for it is just another passage that points to christ proclaiming his own divinity.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 02:15PM
I have a crazy idea, why not actually take the time to dosome research and see if these claims are legit or not. All these assumptions about motivation. One thing that can be said, if there is evidence out there, which in most cases there is, motivations do not make something true or false. Here is an example

Claim-GW Bush says that there are WMD's in Iraq

Motivation-GW wants to invade an Oil Rich country in a volatile region so that he can put in a puppet government that favors US Policy.

Now there either are or are not WMD's in Iraq. Whether or not GW is concerned for the welfare of the world or is just a greedy war monger is irrelevant because you don't need to know his motivation to determine if the claim is true. There is a body of evidence that you can look to. The only time you would need to trust someone at their word is when their is no evidence wither way to support these claims. In the case of National Geo. Their is a body of evidence that we can look to to see if what they are claiming this to be is so.

Pabl,
you ask so good questions, but none of them are relevant to the issue of whether or not this is a legit "scripture" They speak to the motivations and timing not to the claim itself.

Iron,

the first mentioning of this was 180 years after his life as a man ended. You are correct it is not research it is cut and paste. The research will take place now. Much of the New Test. was not put to pad until well after his sacrifice.

TR,

What you say is true, but if it were not for Rastafari reggae music would not be on the map. It would be bunch of dudes playing "mellow music" for tourists who come to town and drop coins in a guitar case.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 03:10PM
808 calm down, you're reaching dirtweed levels. I'm no religionist, but I do find this more interesting that your thread this week on gum.

Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 03:15PM
>you ask so good questions, but none of them are relevant to the issue of >whether or not this is a legit "scripture" They speak to the motivations and
>timing not to the claim itself.

whose making this claim IS directly relevant. The timing is blatant but there is more going on here. As you said "take the time to dosome research" and learn more about the personalities involved. Not the first time questionable material has been "discovered" by folks with hidden objectives. "motivations do not make something true or false" true enough, but being motivated to produce fake antiques does. That being said, I'm not claiming to know this stuff is fake just that the people involved stink of dishonesty. This material isn't new so why should we care NOW?
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 03:55PM
thanks for your post Ninjacat - I enjoy looking at this board at least as much for the reasoning on political and spiritual topics as for reggae discussion. This is a great place for such discussions as reggae fans, though not carbon copies by any means, have enough similarities in viewpoint that it makes for good conversations.

Although this new interpretation of events is interesting, I dont think its that big a deal, correct or not. The account and purpose of the life and death of christ is little changed by this. Personally, in my meditations on the bible, I try not to take too seriously these sorts of details.

That being said:

It appears to me that the essential discrepency between the two accounts is Judas' motivation for betraying christ. Did He betray his master for 30 pieces of silver, or did he sacrifice his name in history in order to aid jesus. If his motivation was a little silver, then he is truly a villian. If his motivation was to aid christ in his mission on earth, disregarding the opinions of the other apostles and other peoples for thousands of years, than he truly was the greatest disciple. Remember the Luke account of the last supper, when the apostles are disputing among themselves which would be considered the greatest? It seems to me like perhaps a lesser disciple might not even agree to betray christ to the romans and pharisees due to concern for his rank within the apostles. In the Luke account of last supper, Jesus also basically says that the least of the disciples will be the greatest. Today, if you ask anyone who the least of the disciples is, will they not say "Judas"? Perhaps he is indeed the greatest...

I think the story of Christs ministry on earth works wither way. However, it is an interesting question to think about

Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 04:00PM
keep your crying to yourself



and your gang, don't bring my name up in your inane posts chimino. what, are you stalking me?

Stevo
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 04:08PM
If Judas' intentions were righteous, not only would he NOT have taken his own life, but also, the righteousness would not have been of his own initiative. I don't believe any gospel of Judas, or Gospel of Thomas is Scripture. A manuscript maybe, but not for the Holy Scripture. They were not "God breathed". And taking a look at these two mens lives in the Bible, may shead some light on why their writings were not included in Scripture, by God.
-Stevo
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 04:16PM
ever notice how the two accounts of judas death (mt 27:5 and acts 1:18) are contradictory? In one he gives the money back and hangs himself. In the second, he buys a field with the money and his body burst open and his intestines fall out.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 04:21PM
which translation of which version of holy scripture does god use? Or does she personally guarantee the inerancy of all of them?
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 04:23PM
Has anyone ever tripped that in the Koran it says that Judas was actually the one crucifide instead of Jesus, but all of the Pharacies and Romans were fooled in thinking that it was actually Jesus?



Faith = Strength
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 04:35PM
>>
Has anyone ever tripped that in the Koran it says that Judas was actually the one crucifide instead of Jesus
<<

YES!

I have tripped out about that, but what trips me out more is Gen 45, and Gen 50.

-s
pale ryder
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 04:50PM
what tripped you out about those chapters?
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 06:05PM
The Bible? What doesn't trip you out....

How about the bits that blatantly condone slavery? (See the same books that also condemn homosexuality & eating meat with diary...)

You're meant to be from the greatest nation known to man. As a black man surveying this... if you're black, I'm ashamed that you've not cottoned on to everything else and at least tried to become rational.

As a man I really can't be dealing with all this.

See ya!
baldhed
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 06, 2006 11:56PM
information like this is so pointless
y'know i heard that if you looked directly into Medusa's eyes, you will turn to stone! now thats some crazy shlt!!
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 02:15AM
Not pointless at all - it's all about reasoning, and stimulating your thought processes.

>>"The manuscript was first mentioned in a treatise around 180 A.D."

Does not mean it first appeared in 180 A.D. - it may have in fact been somewhat common knowledge to many long before. Furthermore why is it so hard to believe? Christ had to be sacrificed to fulfill prophecy, perhaps a little "motivation" was required. Always thought it was funny that some people get all uptight over Jesus Christ Superstar (which happens to be one of my favorites - great concept album) - people get so locked into their view of the scriptures that they can't even take a look from a different angle without offense. If it is a true gospel - JCS may actually be fairly on point.

Lionheart - had never heard that before. One more reason for looking into the Koran...thanks for the tip. Maybe I'll write my own play... =D
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 06:51AM
Stevo,

If you had just betrayed the One you loved more than anything in the world and watched what they put him through you in fact may not be able to live with yourself. You, as a man, would come to doubt and be unsure of what you had done after the fact and if in fact this is ture, then can we be sure that Judas took his own life? Perhaps it was taken from him from his perceived betrayal, just a thought.

Also I don't think national Geographic is going to put their credibility on the line to promote a movie. That seems highly unlikely.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 09:32AM
I thought it (Islamic View of the Crucifiction) to be particularly interesting in light of the ancient manuscript NG has uncovered regarding Judas. The Koran is definitely worth penetrating. One thing that drew me to it is the fact that unlike the Gospels, which were compiled by several men (the apostles) The Koran supposively was channeleled directly through Mohamed by Allah and written verbatum by his own scribes. While still 'diluded' by the minds and words of men, it seems to be less toiled with than the Gospels. More straight from the horses mouth. Oh no! Did I just depict Allah as being a horse, oh **** I hope I don't get my house blown up! Yikes.



Faith = Strength
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 09:59AM
that all depends Lion, If you believe that the gospels are God Breathed then it doesn't matter if they go through the hands of, not to mention (this is in no way a knock on the Hoy Quaran) I prefer to hear multiple points of view on any given series of events. Just a bit of advice which you may already know, the Quaran is a difficult book to read, it is best to speak to a Muslim before trying to get into it, they would be much more likely to help you overstand how it is written and give you a greater contextual overstanding. Peace.
eyes
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 10:28AM
you know for reggae fans ya'll like to stir up the dogma- I'm glad I don't see you guys acting like this at the shows but I think it's the forum that creates this duality as we are all typing from different places when we come together and see our faces the reggae lifts us to higher graces. You guys battle with opinions on this forum and I hope it helps you recognize the demons. I know you all must be familiar with word, sound and power, words can be weapons, careful how you use them, where you point them, they hurt- we all are here for same reason so lets use our words to uplift to love to spread the good news, don't caught on dismal details, respect more respect for one another, we are the same sisters and brothers from many mothers, born from one Great great Great GrandMother who we all rest on, blessup all the eyes and share the love+ pass it around!JAH!love grow
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 10:40AM
Most definitely Ninja. I actually read a book by Houston Smith which explained that to a Westerner, the Koran can be grossly misinterpeted mainly because of the vast differences between latin based language and the Arabic language. Also, The Koran was not written to be a reference book, but rather something that all muslims should be able to recite verbally from cover to cover. I wish I knew someone of the Arabic/Islamic understanding that I could reason with as I study it. For now I just try to be as objective and open as possible while maintaining some level of reservation with respect to any level of understanding I may claim to have.

Much RASpect Ninja.



Faith = Strength
Stevo
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 10:43AM
Eyes, you comin with the wisdom. Big respect fi dat! I especially like these words here....

"You guys battle with opinions on this forum and I hope it helps you recognize the demons"

Honestly, it does.

Ninja- I do see what you mean bredda. I would refer to the prayer in the garden to sight Christs willingness to serve the Father rather than give into his desire to have the cup pass him over. As a sheep that is silent before it's sheerer. He bore the iniquity of us all. As you probably know, that's from Isaiah. There are many verses that hammer home the truth about Christ and His ways and His accomplishments. The most important being His love for and His submission to the Father.

-Stevo
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 10:45AM
please give us some specific examples. "Battling Opinions" "Recognition of Demons" "Dismal Details". I am asking this in all seriousness not just to anger you. Also some examples of the "hurtful words." Seeing as you seem to be critical of our discussion I think this is the least you can do. Peace.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 02:35PM
I guess this story is making big news. It was featured on Nightline last night, it was a pretty good story with comments from many bible scholars and the scientest that did the carbon dating test. Also there is going to be a special on Sunday on the National Geographic channel about it as well.
eyes
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 04:05PM
ok... i've been looking at this forum for awhile but i don't say much, just pick bits of news- i recognize the postive intentions but we get caught picking apart eachothers statements, like the one who said he wanted to take this topic out of the forum. The demons I recognize are in the desire to contradict, disclaim and put to shame- no need for specific examples you know what I'm talking about- our differences are most evvident on this board where only our words stand+ but if you were to look me in the eyes see we at a show you would see us the same= coming with same love same interest same music+ 1 riddim
I appreciate the discussion the perspectives but I lose energy in the pointless arguments
because really what do we have to argue for, we're on the same side breathing same air in 1ove with the music we share+Big Up all the eyes+ No disrespect intended, just trying to realine with our original bassline JAH!
eyes
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 04:13PM
ps: big up Sierra Nevada don't forget the Gratitude the big tunes the musical masters if you're not happy with the lineup you must be thirsty fool cause it keeps getting better right
pale ryder
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 04:14PM
well according to Carbon dating and geology, the earth is 4.6 billion yrs old. Most Christians believe it is 6,000 yrs old. This belief is based on the bible, Stevo, do you know which verses refer to how old the earth is? Big discrepency, big respect......
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 04:20PM
Pale that belief is based on a legalist approach to the Bible, interpretation if you will. For example a legalist approach to creation is that from nothing, everything came to be in 7 days. A more rational approach would be that each day represents an era in the creative process. The Bible itself says that 1,000 years is as one day with God or One day is a thousand years..time does not exist for God.
pale ryder
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 04:24PM
Then where do they get the 6,000 yrs belief? Strictly interpretation?
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 04:30PM
Pale that is mostly based on genealogies in the bible, yet they still don't account for the time before man came on the scene, in which the whole creation week analogy come into play.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 04:35PM
Oh yeah and also in 1650 AD, the Archbishop of Armagh, James Usher, calculated that 4004 BC was the date of the creation year. So many believers in a young earth fall back on this stupid bumboclatt catholic statement.
pale ryder
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 04:39PM
Its scary how that denomination runs things, even though christianity is split into so many different groups....
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 04:44PM
Yes the Whore of Babylon run tings' but I don't associate the Catholic Church in with all the groups. After the reformation I believe that two different religions were established. That just recently made a movie on the reformation and Martin Luther's life I reccomend you check it Pale.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 04:47PM
Yes though it is sad in this day that their influence is being felt and accepted in todays Christian Community!! Not to long ago Catholics were murdering Protestants as heritics!
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 07, 2006 09:46PM
This is good stuff for us Bible scholars. I love that all this stuff is coming out, and has been for the past few decades. It tells me that Christianity was NOT one monolithic movement, but very diverse in their interpretations of Yshua and the Christ story. Thank God for that!

Also, the books that were included in the New Testament are not "God-breathed"...more like politically-minded-man-made-breathed. As stated above, the early Christian movement was diverse but through historical and political process it became an orthodox religion.

I wonder why the Gospel of Phillip, which has a homo-erotic theme between Yshua and a nude boy isn't making the headlines....

-------------------------

Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 10, 2006 03:35PM
Anybody catch that documentry on the Book Of Judas on the National Geographic Channel Last night? I thought it was put together quite well. Any thoughts on this? Also There is a two part mini series on The Ten Commandments tonight and tommorow night. I read that it is much different than the old movie in that the character of Moses is much more humble, meek, and humanized. Not like the Charleton Heston Moses that had deep confident voice, self-assured hero-like persona. Hopefully it will be a good rendition.
Re: New Light shed on vegemite
April 10, 2006 03:42PM
In 1922, Fred Walker (1884-1935) of Melbourne, Australia decided to try to make a special "yeast extract" that would be as delicious as it was nourishing for his Fred Walker Cheese Company to sell. The chief scientist in the company Fred owned was Dr. Cyril P. Callister, and it was Dr. Callister who invented the first Vegemite spread. He used brewer's yeast and blended the yeast extract with ingredients like celery, onion, salt, and a few secret ingredients to make this paste. In 1912, a national competition and a prize of 50 pounds was offered to the winner or winners to name the new product.. The name ‘Vegemite’ was finally chosen from the entries by Fred’s daughter Sheilah .

With its unusual and unique flavor, Vegemite was not an immediate success and sales were slow. In 1928 Vegemite was renamed and registered as Parwill in an attempt to boost its sales and to attract customers of the rival spread Marmite (an English yeast spread that dominated the Australian market sinc 1910). "If Marmite...then Parwill" was the rationale behind Walker's strategy to carve a niche in the market for his spread. The name Parwill and Walker's play on words didn't catch on. It was only sold as Parwill for a short time in Queensland. The name was withdrawn in 1935, and the original name was reinstated.

Earlier, in 1925, Walker had arranged with the Chicago, Illinois firm of James L. Kraft to make processed cheese in Australia. A company called the Kraft Walker Cheese Co. was established alongside Fred Walker and Co. In 1935, Walker used the success of his processed cheese to launch a new campaign to revive Vegemite. The company launched 2-year coupon redemption scheme whereby a jar of Vegemite was given away with every purchase of other products in the Fred Walker Cheese Company. Australians tried the product and loved it. Vegemite was well and truly on the road to success.

Two years later, the company held a poetry competition and once again brought Vegemite into the national spotlight. This time its success the prizes were imported American Pontiac cars. Entries flooded in and sales multiplied.

In 1935, the recipe and manufacturing methods was sold to Kraft Foods and has been wholly owned and made by American companies. In 1939 Vegemite received endorsement from the British Medical Association which allowed doctors to recommend it as a Vitamin B-rich, nutritionally balanced food for patients.

In World War II, soldiers, sailors, and the civilian population of Australia all had Vegemite included in their rations. Soldiers’ Vegemite came in three sizes: seven-pound tins for the platoon, eight-ounce tins for soldiers on the go, and half-ounce rations for behind enemy lines. This war-time demand meant that civilian were limited. Hence, advertisements were run to explain the situation: “Vegemite fights with the men up north! If you are one of those who don’t need Vegemite medicinally, then thousands of invalids are asking you to deny yourself of it for the time being.”

The main change to the original recipe in recent years has been to reduce the salt content from 10% to 8%.

Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 10, 2006 03:59PM
<Tongue-in-cheek>
Moses had quite the stutter, which is why Moses had his half-brother Aaron speak for him in public. Aaron, also known as Hank, also had a very successful baseball career and eventually surpassed the great Babe Ruth in home runs. Even so, it was Ruth, and not Hank, who had the honor to be immortalized in the bible with his own OT book.

Bible history is never out of style...
</Tongue-in-cheek>

Peace,
-RV
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 10, 2006 04:22PM
This was actually on tv last night. Don't remember if it was the Discovery or History channel but it was intriguing. It really pointed out how wicked humankind can be to each other.



&quot;love shines brighter than the morning sun&quot;
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 10, 2006 05:44PM
Yeah Sista the documentry was on last night, the movie I am refering to starts tonight. But yeah I know what you mean, that scene with the iron chair...so evil!!

Yeah so true RV... that's why I mentioned that about the difference in character that this movie is supposed to portray..we shall see.

Oh and dirtweed thanks for the Vegemite history... When I was in Australia it was practically everywhere. I guess that is the only place that Vegemite could sell, well there and probably with the limey's cause both countries food is just so bland...yuck!!!
jjlab3
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 10, 2006 05:51PM
I watched the 2 hour special on it last night on National Geogrpahic channel. It was a great show.

I was very surpirsed to find out that there are many known "gospels" that did not make the New Testament such as Thomas, Judas, and many others. There are known to be over 30 gospels.

As the early Christian church looked to define itself they narrowed their message to the gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John.

They were able to date the codex or gospel of Judas to the 3rd or 4th century. However they know that it is a copy made by the gnostics and not the orginal. The gnostics view of early Christianity was much different than the church which was beginning to form which may explain why it was left out.

I think they are replaying it all week and it is definitley worht it to watch.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 10, 2006 06:04PM
jjlab3, check these....

[www.earlychristianwritings.com]

[www.gospels.net]

[www.fordham.edu]

[www.pbs.org]

Enjoy.

----------------------------------------------

Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 06:05AM
Because their are some very legitimate criticisms to be made of the Roman Catholic Church, it's a little too easy sometimes to make inaccurate statements.

"in 1650 AD, the Archbishop of Armagh, James Usher, calculated that 4004 BC was the date of the creation year. So many believers in a young earth fall back on this stupid bumboclatt catholic statement." -- Protestant not Catholic...
from wikipedia:

"James Ussher (sometimes spelled Usher) (4 January 1581–21 March 1656) was ANGLICAN Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland between 1625–1656 and a prolific religious scholar who most famously published a chronology which dated the Creation from 4004 BC."

If you check the catechism of the Roman Catholic Church and some of the writings of John Paul II you will find that their view of creation allows for modern scientific theories.

"Not to long ago Catholics were murdering Protestants as heritics!" -- and the Protestants were murdering right back, and they were all burning witches and jews, and barbarians. Check Luther's words... the man was full of fear and hatred for women and Jews.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 07:03AM
KRS One has some interesting thought on why there are 4 Gospels.....

We are the ones prophesized to return
My main concern is for all of you to learn
How to live, yes through the lyrics I give and send my friend
This age is coming to an end
Not the world, but the age is ending
Ending, listen to the astrological message I'm sending
I'm sending, tell em
Truth is truth, whether or not you like me
We are living now in the age of Pisces
When Pisces is over, at the year two thousand
When the Sun of God, changes his house and
enters the Age of Aquarius
The Sun of God as man is hilarious (okay)
When you think of Jesus, think of the Sun
The flaming Sun, that's where they stole this concept from
Stop believing and read your bible logically
The new testament is really old astrology
Jesus is the son of God no lie
But they might be talking about the Sun up in the sky
The Sun, that hangs on the cross of the zodiac
The zodiac with twelve signs to be exact
Each sign is a house, and you should keep in mind
Each house equals, a period of time
The time, two thousand years and that's a fact
It's called an age or a house in the zodiac
The twelve disciples, are twelve months of reason
The four gospels signify the four seasons
When Jesus fed the multitude with two fishes
It signified the Age of Pisces, not fish or dishes
If you read the bible astrologically it's clearer (no doubt)
The next age will be the age of the water-bearer
It's called the Age of Aquarius (word)
When logic and truth will take care of us
So in this age, of spiritual dignity
You'll see a rise in femininity
and creativity, meshed with masculinity
You got to get with me, this is your true her-story (rrryyy!)
Do you wanna go higher...
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 08:14AM
Historically inaccurate Ninjacat, but I love KRS One just the same. Very high levels of spirituality!

-------------------------------------------------------

Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 08:16AM
and I am sure as a lover or reason and consistency you will demonstrate how this is hitorically inaccurate.
a
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 09:07AM
a
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 09:08AM
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Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 09:08AM
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Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 09:09AM
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 12:05PM
Ninjacat, the astrological theories of Early Christianity are conjecture, as there is no primary written proof of the connection. Not even in the Gnostic writings do we have heavy emphasis on astrological calanders. I am not saying it cannot be true, but as far as primary source material (which makes it historically valid) there is none, therefore it is historically inaccurate. I wrote a paper for an Early Christian professor that tried to connect East Asian ascetic practices in 4th Cent. Alexandria with the practices of St. Anthony and the Desert ascetics of 4th Cent. Christianity, but he blew it out of the water because there is no proof, and for historical scholars until proof is given it is pure conjecture. I even tried to persuade him with the Christian rosary (Buddhist prayer beads), the chanting of the Jesus Prayer (Hindu mantras), but he wouldn't go for it because there was no proof. As much respect as Clement of Alexandria (who I used as my main primary source document) had for the Indian ascetics, he never wrote that the Christians copied their practices. Same with Philo's writings of the Thereputae, who practiced a form of Jewish monasticism. Although they are similar to the monastic practices of early Christianity, there is no concrete proof of a connection.

No bad vibes intended, but for us historians proof is the bottom line.

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Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 12:06PM
Ras Adam, that is exactly what I am talking about.

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Re: New Light shed on Intestinal Parasites
April 11, 2006 12:08PM
INTESTINAL PARASITES, BACTERIAL DYSBIOSIS AND LEAKY GUT

EXCERPTS FROM POWER HEALING (RANDOM HOUSE, 1998)
BY LEO GALLAND, M.D.

The human intestine maintains within its inner cavity a complex, crowded environment of food remnants and microbial organisms (called "the intestinal flora"winking smiley from which the body derives nourishment and against which the body must be protected. The relationship between the human host and her army of microbes is described by the Greek word, symbiosis, which means "living together". When symbiosis benefits both parties, it is called mutualism. When symbiosis becomes harmful, it is called dysbiosis. The first line of protection against dysbiosis and intestinal toxicity is strict control of intestinal permeability, the ability of the gut to allow some substances to pass through its walls while denying access to others. The healthy gut selectively absorbs nutrients and seals out those components of the normal internal milieu which are most likely to cause harm, except for a small sampling which it uses to educate and strengthen its mechanisms of immunity and detoxification.

Bacteria form the largest segment of the intestinal flora. The number of bacteria in the large bowel (about a hundred trillion) exceeds the number of cells in the human body. Intestinal bacteria perform some useful functions, so that our relationship with them is normally one of mutual benefit. They synthesize half a dozen vitamins, supplementing those which are obtained from food. They convert dietary fibre--that part of food which humans cannot digest--into small fatty acids which nourish the cells of the large intestine. They degrade dietary toxins like methyl mercury making them less harmful to the body. They crowd out pathogenic bacteria like Salmonella, decreasing the risk of food poisoning. They stimulate the development of a vigorous immune response. Four-fifths of the body's immune system is located in the lining of the small intestine.

Bacteria are dangerous tenants, however, so that dysbiosis is a common problem. As powerful chemical factories, bacteria not only make vitamins and destroy toxins, but also destroy vitamins and make toxins. Bacterial enzymes can inactivate human digestive enzymes and convert human bile or components of food into chemicals which promote the development of cancer. Some by-products of bacterial enzyme activity, like ammonia, hinder normal brain function. When absorbed into the body, they must be removed by the liver. People whose livers fail this task, because of conditions like cirrhosis, develop progressive neurologic dysfunction resulting in coma and death. For them, the administration of antibiotics which slow the production of nerve toxins by intestinal bacteria can be life saving.

The immune reactions provoked by normal intestinal bacteria may be harmful rather than helpful. Inflammatory diseases of the bowel, including ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease (ileitis), and several types of arthritis have been linked to aberrant immune responses provoked by intestinal bacteria. Two types of aberrancy have been described. First, intestinal bacteria contain proteins which look to the immune system very much like human proteins; they confuse the immune system and may fool the body into attacking itself. Second, fragments of dead bacteria may leak into the wall of the intestine or into the blood stream due to a breakdown in the mechanisms which regulate intestinal permeability. Circulating through the body, bacterial debris is deposited in tissues such as joints, provoking an attack on those tissues by an immune system trying to remove the foreign material.

Bacterial colonies in the human intestine co-exist with colonies of yeasts, which are no less dangerous, just far fewer in number. Bacterial colonization prevents yeasts from expanding their niche. Frequent or prolonged use of antibiotics decimates bacterial colonies, removing the natural brake on yeast growth. The most obvious effects of yeast overgrowth are local infections, like vaginitis, produced when yeast invade and disrupt cells which line the body's surface. Intestinal yeast infections can cause chronic diarrhea, although most gastroenterologists fail to recognize this. Yeast can also provoke allergic reactions, precipitating asthma, hives, psoriasis or abdominal pain. The occurrence of allergic symptoms or the aggravation of a pre-existing allergy which follows the use of antibiotics should always prompt an investigation into yeast overgrowth as a potential trigger. Neglect of this factor by allergists has left countless patients trapped in a spiral of increasing allergic reactivity, augmented each time antibiotics are prescribed.

In addition to bacteria and yeast, most of the world's four billion people are also colonized by intestinal parasites. Contrary to popular belief, parasitic infection is not unusual in the U.S. population. It is a common ocurrence, even among those who have never left the country.

Unlike bacteria, parasites appear to serve no useful function. The part of the immune system which they stimulate does not strengthen the organism to resist serious infection; instead it contributes to allergic reactions, so that parasitic infection increases allergic tendencies. There are two general groups of parasites. The first consists of worms--tapeworms and roundworms--which attach themselves to the lining of the small intestine, causing internal bleeding and loss of nutrients. People infested with worms may have no symptoms or may slowly become anemic. The second category is the protozoa, one-celled organisms like the amoeba which caused John Gerard's colitis. The first protozoa were discovered over three hundred years ago by Antonie van Leeuwenhoek, the most famous of the early microscopists. When the inquisitive Dutchman set about to examine everything in the world that would fit under the lens of a microscope, he found organisms in his own stool that closely match the description later given to Giardia lamblia.

Giardia is the major cause of day-care diarrhea. Twenty to thirty per cent of workers in day care centers harbor Giardia. Most have no symptoms; they are merely carriers. A study at Johns Hopkins medical school a few years ago demonstrated antibodies against Giardia in twenty per cent of randomly chosen blood samples from patients in the hospital. This means that at least twenty per cent of these patients had been infected with Giardia at some time in their lives and had mounted an immune response against the parasite.

In 1990 I presented a paper before the American College of Gastroenterology which demonstrated Giardia infection in about half of a group of two hundred patients with chronic diarrhea, constipation, abdominal pain and bloating. Most of these patients had been told they had irritable bowel syndrome, which is commonly referred to as "nervous stomach". I reached two conclusions from this study: (1) Parasitic infection is a common event among patients with chronic gastrointestinal symptoms. (2) Many people are given a diagnosis of irritable bowel syndrome without a thorough evaluation. My presentation was reported by numerous magazines and newspapers, including the New York Times. My office was flooded with hundreds of phone calls from people who were suffering with chronic gastrointestinal complaints. Most of them had been given a diagnosis of Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) by their physicians. The standard treatment for this syndrome had not helped them. All they had received was a label. Many had been told there was no cure. In evaluating these patients, I found that the majority had intestinal parasites, food intolerance or a lack of healthy intestinal bacteria. These conditions were not mutually exclusive. Many patients had more than one reason for chronic gastrointestinal problems. Treating these abnormalities as they occurred in various patients produced remarkably good therapeutic results. A year later, researchers in the Department of Family Medicine at Baylor University in Houston reported findings similar to mine.

Giardia contaminates streams and lakes throughout North America and has caused epidemics of diarrheal disease in several small cities by contaminating their drinking water. One epidemic, in Placerville, California, was followed by an epidemic of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, which swept through the town's residents at the time of the Giardia epidemic. Possibly, this epidemic was due to failure of some people to eradicate the parasite. In 1991, my colleagues and I published a study of 96 patients with chronic fatigue and demonstrated active Giardia infection in 46 per cent.

Sometimes, the intestinal damage produced by giardiasis persists for months after the parasite has been successfully treated. The impairment of digestion and absorption which results from this damage may cause fatigue and other symptoms.

When I first began presenting the results of my clinical research on parasitic infection, in the mid-1980's, my reports were met with considerable skepticism. The present decade has witnessed an increased awareness of parasitic infection as a common public health problem in the United States, thanks largely to Cryptosporidium, which recently achieved notoriety for contaminating Milwaukee's water supply, causing the largest epidemic of diarrhea in U.S. history, infecting 400,000 people and causing over one hundred deaths. Most municipal water supplies in the U.S. today are home to protozoa like Giardia and Cryptosporidium and one in five Americans drinks water that violates federal health standards. Every year, almost a million North Americans become sick from water-borne diseases; about one per cent die. Further epidemics are inevitable. A recent epidemic occurred in Clark County, Nevada, despite state-of-the-art municipal water treatment.

How protozoa make people sick is not clear. Some directly invade the lining of the intestine, others provoke an allergic reaction that causes the damage. It appears certain that humans coexist quite readily with their parasites as long as the barrier formed by the intestinal lining remains fully intact, so that the parasites cannot attach to the wall of the bowel. Millions of people throughout the world are carriers of E. histolytica; the organism can be found in stool samples but it does not seem to make them ill. The variability of pathogenic potential recalls Pasteur's challenge to the French Academy: do the causes of disease lie within the microbe or do they lie within the host? When the attachment of a parasite initiates a series of injuries to the intestinal wall that increase its permeability, it generates a cascade of reactions that can shatter a person's health in many different ways. Excessive permeability permits excess absorption of antigens and microbial fragments from the gut, over-stimulating the immune response, fostering allergy and auto-immunity.

Excess permeability also allows excessive absorption of toxins derived from the chemical activity of intestinal bacteria, stressing the liver. All materials absorbed from the intestine must pass through the liver before entering the body's general circulation. Here, in the cells of the liver, toxic chemicals are destroyed or else prepared for excretion out of the body. The cost of detoxification is high; free radicals are generated and the liver's stores of anti-oxidants are depleted. The liver may be damaged by the products of its own attempts at detoxification. Damage may extend to the pancreas. Free radicals are excreted into bile; this "toxic" bile flows into the small intestine and can ascend into the ducts which carry pancreatic juices, damaging the pancreas, aggravating malnutrition.

The symptoms produced by excessive intestinal permeability may be limited to the abdomen or may involve the entire body. They may include fatigue and malaise, joint and muscle pain, headache and skin eruptions. The clinical disorders associated with increased intestinal permeability include any inflammation of the large or small intestine (colitis and enteritis), chronic arthritis , skin conditions like acne, eczema, hives or psoriasis, migraine headaches, chronic fatigue, deficient pancreatic function and AIDS . In most cases, it is incorrect to think of excessive permeability as the cause of these disorders. Instead, excess permeability occurs as part of the chain of events which causes disease and aggravates existing symptoms or produces new ones.

Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 12:14PM
Ninjacat, when the writings come out of the caves and dirt that confirm these theories, then it will be historically accurate. I have a feeling they will be soon, because up until the last century, the only thing we knew about Christianity was from an orthodox perspective. Now we have all kinds of proof that the early Christians were a very diverse movement.

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Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 12:27PM
yeah i caught that on NGC, interesting....
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 11, 2006 01:52PM
That is what I am talking about. LOGIC and REASON I yield to my distiguished friend
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 08:45AM
Ras A, those pictures are actually James the Just and Jesus, scenes taken from the the 1st and 2nd Apocalypse of James. Check it:

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"And he (Jesus) kissed my (James) mouth. He took hold of me, saying, "My beloved! Behold, I shall reveal to you those things that (neither) the heavens nor their archons have known. Behold, I shall reveal to you those things that he did not know, he who boasted, "[...] there is no other except me. Am I not alive? Because I am a father, do I not have power for everything?" Behold, I shall reveal to you everything, my beloved. Understand and know them, that you may come forth just as I am. Behold, I shall reveal to you him who is hidden. But now, stretch out your hand. Now, take hold of me."

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Gnosis (inner-knowledge of the Kingdom) was passed from Jesus to James. These two writings are Jewish-Christian Gnostic writings, therefore they uphold the tradition that James was the first Bishop/Pope, not Peter. They (strict Jewish Christian groups) also were very against Paul. Maybe the Pauline Christian orthodoxy practiced today is actually the heresy of the Early Christian Movement within its original Jewish context?

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Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 10:16AM
Galatians 1: 6-9

"I'M ASTONISHED THAT YOU ARE SO QUICKLY DESERTING THE TRUTH THE ONE WHO CALLED YOU TO THE GRACE OF YESHUA MESSIAH( his non european name in his language) AND ARE TURNING TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL, WHICH IS REALLY NO GOSPEL AT ALL. EVIDENTLY SOME PEOPLE ARE THROWING YOU INTO CONFUSION AND ARE TRYING TO PERVERT THE GOSPEL OF YESHUA MESSIAH. BUT IF WE,OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL UNTO YOU THAN WHICH WE HAVE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED! AS WE HAVE ALREADY SAID,SO NOW I SAY AGAIN: IF ANYBODY IS PREACHING TO YOU GOSPEL OTHER THAN YOU EXCEPTED, LET HIM BE ETERNALLY CONDEMNED.

brothers and sisters, the truth is an offense but not a sin. the savior said that in the last days people will be fooled into believing anything saying here's the christ there's the christ. this is because we are in perilous times and times of hoplessness. but the good thing is that 90% of all discussions about the Savior, the Nazerene, establishes belief in him. remember it was Pilate who said "what is truth" before he handed him over.

respect to all who agree and disagree.......shalom and soulkiss!!!!

The Cultureman
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 10:22AM
Book, Chapter, Verse nice post cultureman
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 10:30AM
Peace be with you ninja, my father,son and brother. We are sons of Adam.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 10:55AM
Paul was the first Christian heretic. I would rather take heed to James, brother of Yshua, who actually knew him personally. Only my opinion, but Paul created something completely different than what Yshua taught.

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Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 11:02AM
THe House of Saul
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 02:25PM
"Paul created something completely different than what Yshua taught." - I'm not disagreeing but, with respect, in your opinion which teachings of Paul are in opposition to which teachings of Yshua?
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 02:35PM
ninjacat, are you agreeing with J_72 or Cultureman? is Paul a heretic?
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 02:58PM
I have to tkae off and I need to have The Book in front of me Pablo, but you ask a good question I will get at you tomorrow with some of the teachings of Paul who was Saul that I have issue with. Just a teaser. "Slaves obey your earlthy masters." I am big on book, chapter, verse so I will get it to you. Peace.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 03:18PM
Here's an angle that I find interesting...for you bible detectives..

Perhaps Paul was already initiated into an esoteric "pre-Christian Jewish Gnosis" through the Pharisees. One centered around contemplation of the archetypal Adam Kadmon or Perfect Man reflected in the Enochian tradition of the "Son of Man" as Pre-existant Messiah. Perhaps Yshua was also initiated into a similar though rival group. This might explain why Saul was initially opposed to the followers of
The Way but later became their biggest champion (some may say co-opted). Perhaps he saw "the Jesus story" as a good vehicle for his own form of Gnosis or maybe he truly became convinced that Yshua was the pre-existant Christed Perfect Man.

not claiming this as TRUTH, just a fertile possibility...any thoughts?
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 03:32PM
Pablo,
I believe he "truly became convinced" when he got blinded in the desert.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 04:00PM
Re: New Light shed on a dirty ashtray
April 12, 2006 04:16PM
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 04:42PM
I see what you mean.
Sounds like quite a "kiss and tell" story.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 07:32PM
This all very entertaining, when does the movie come out???
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 12, 2006 09:55PM
Most talk about JC
A few talk with JC
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 13, 2006 05:47AM
What else can you tell us about these lucky few?
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 13, 2006 09:14AM
To me Paul who was Saul seems to favor religon over G-d. The teaching sof the Nazerene did not seperate Man from G-d while the teachings seem to be steeped in the ways of the world. I find his teaching that all goverments should be obeyed because they are only put into place by G-d is not acceptable. As mentioned yesterday that slaves should obey earthly masters is also not acceptable. I find and would challenge others to find fault and inconsistency in the teachings of Christ. Most of th eproblems people have are with the teachings of Paul. This is not to say that there is no good found in the teachings of Paul. Just that they seem to sometimes run against the teachings of Christ.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 13, 2006 10:23AM
I agree that somehow the "vibe" I get in Paul's letters doesn't always mesh with the "vibe" I get from the words attributed to Yshua, but again please, which specific teachings are in conflict?
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 13, 2006 11:29AM
conflict or contradict might not be the right words.

"Slaves, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ." Ephesians 6:5

Where does Christ say this?
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 13, 2006 12:12PM
As I said, in spirit I agree that somehow this "feels" different then Christ. I guess what I'm getting at is that among all the words attributed to Yshua or Christ or Jesus or whoever, I have a hard time finding actual specific teachings but mainly a lot of cryptic parables and generalized plattitudes, also a lot of beauty that has shaped my experience of life, no doubt, but only after being filtered through interpretation. For example, I could make the argument that Christ's "teachings" about giving to Caesar that which is Caesar's and turning the other cheek and how the last will become first could be interpreted as being very much in tune with a slave obeying his worldly master or powerful leaders being put there by God. I could also point out that Jesus said not one iota of the law should change as support for Paul's bias against women. My point is that without someone like a Paul (like him or not) to elaborate on Jesus' words what "message" would be left? If you read only the words attributed to Yshua in the four Gospels and nothing else, what "teachings" would you have? What makes them unique? revolutionary? I ask this not as a naysayer but respectfully as one who has tried to reason on this personally. I know these are big questions in the wrong forum (sorry dirtweed) but if any I feels a call to respond I would love to reason this a little more here...Ninja?J_72?FowardZion?Stevo perhaps? what are Yshua's teachings?
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 13, 2006 12:27PM
Remember a very large percentage of the population of the Roman Empire was made up of bondservants. They could be abused and killed by their masters without any consequence. This is not only for slaves of that time but for all time as there are slaves today. Also he makes it clear to be obedient in only the matters of the flesh not of the spirit. Also that serving is more christ-like than to be in authority over others, as christ was the servant of all. This is not condoning slavery but realizing that it is an evil that was previlent then as it is now...
Some passages:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven...
Blessed are those who are persecutred for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven....
Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven...." Matthew 5:3,10-12
"You have heard that it was said 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth', but I tell you do not resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also...
You have heard that it was said 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy' But I say to you love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray those who spitefully USE you and PERSECUTE you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for he makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you what reward have you?.....And if you greet your brethren only what do you do more than others?..." Matthew 5:38,39,43-47
All words of Yashua... Also reminds me of a song by Joe Higgs called "There's a Reward for Me" great song!!!
Jah will measure out justice and the righteous will be vindicated.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Viagra Relationship
April 13, 2006 01:00PM
Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors And Sexual Dysfunction: A Historical Review Of The Development Of Evidence For An Adverse Effect

Anita K. Wagner, Pharm.D., M.P.H.

Under the headline "Viagra and Prozac, strange bedfellows", The Buffalo News recently published the following reader’s question: "I take Prozac and Wellbutrin for depression. As you may know, Prozac affects a man's ability to perform sexually. I don't know if I can blame this completely on the medication; some may be due to the job stress that made me depressed to start with. Would Viagra be an appropriate treatment for this problem? If I took it, would there be any dangerous interaction?" The pharmacologist’s answer was "Prozac can have a profound impact on sexuality. It can delay ejaculation or lead to impotence in men, and can lower libido or interfere with orgasm in both sexes. Viagra cannot improve sexual desire or speed ejaculation. While it might improve erections, we do not know whether it would interact with your antidepressants in a dangerous way. Such experiments have not been conducted."(1) Around that time also, Eli Lilly and Company, manufacturer of the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) antidepressant fluoxetine (Prozacâ ), announced a joint venture with Icos to develop a new impotence drug, a "product [that] is being talked about as a next-generation Viagra." The companies indicated that they also intend to develop treatments for women who have sexual dysfunction.(2)

These excerpts from the general news media reflect several of the insights patients, clinicians, researchers, and drug manufacturers have gained over the 12 years since FDA approval of fluoxetine into one of the SSRI’s disturbing adverse effects: SSRI affect different aspects of men’s and women’s sexual functioning, at higher rates than originally detected; these effects are not easily separated from the underlying disorders for which they are prescribed; patients prefer not to suffer from adverse sexual effects; identification of drugs to counteract them have provided additional evidence for the drug-associated sexual effects and contributed to further understanding of the neurophysiology of sexual dysfunction.

In this paper, I will attempt to chronicle the development of evidence for SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction. Published reports were identified in January 1999 through a search of citations in the National Library of Medicine’s Medlineâ database from 1966 to 1999. Keywords used were SSRIs (in any field) and sexual dysfunction (as MeSH term or text word). The search yielded 31 citations; another search using fluoxetine and sexual dysfunction yielded 78 records. Pertinent publications are reviewed here.

In their 1988 review of drug-induced sexual dysfunction, McWaine and Procci discussed the reports of sexual function disturbances attributed to the then available two major groups of antidepressants, heterocyclic antidepressants and monoamine oxidase inhibitors.(3) The authors point out the major caveat to the interpretation of the available data, that depression itself is associated with various forms of sexual dysfunction. Several reports were available at that time of decreased libido, erectile dysfunction, inhibited, painful ejaculation and anorgasmia in males. Less evidence pointed to female sexual dysfunction. Case reports of antiserotonergic (cyproheptadine)(4) and cholinergic (bethanechol)(5) agents' successful use to treat antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction supported the hypothesis that the antidepressants' serotonergic and anticholinergic properties may be responsible for their impairment of sexual function.

Fluoxetine was available in the US in January 1988. By 1990, it had become the most widely prescribed antidepressant ever, attributed to its perceived lack of side effects and lack of toxicity in overdose. At that time, the manufacturer cited a 1.9% incidence of sexual dysfunction associated with fluoxetine treatment in controlled clinical trials of its efficacy and safety.(6) The first case reports after the drug was available, however, indicated higher incidences of sexual dysfunction. In 1990, Dr. Musher began a letter to the American Journal of Psychiatry saying "I have noticed over the past 15 months that my patients who were taking fluoxetine were experiencing anorgasmia as a side effect at a much higher rate than that described by the manufacturer."(7) He observed that 5 of the 32 (16%) patients he had treated with fluoxetine spontaneously reported new-onset anorgasmia as a side effect, temporally related to the start of fluoxetine therapy. In other case series published in the same and the following year, 5 of 60 (8.3%)(8) and 6 of 77 (7.8%)(9) patients treated with various doses of fluoxetine spontaneously reported delayed orgasm or anorgasmia.

Almost simultaneously, the first case reports of treatment of the drug-induced sexual dysfunction with the antiserotonergic agent cyproheptadine(10,11,12,13,14) suggested the SSRI's serotonergic activity as the main mechanism of fluoxetine’s effect on sexual function. Results of these treatments were mixed. In some cases, cyproheptadine, as was expected, also abolished the antidepressant effect of fluoxetine,(11,12) while in others, patients regained orgasmic capabilities without diminished antidepressant effects.(10,13,14) Balogh and colleagues discovered incidentally that amantadine, a mild dopamine agonist, resolved fluoxetine-associated anorgasmia and successfully treated three men and two women.(15) They proposed that effects of fluoxetine’s serotonin agonism on dopamine activity were responsible for delayed orgasm and anorgasmia.

Clinicians and researchers were aware that patients’ depressed mood could well contribute to their reported sexual problems. Depression-associated sexual effects were usually not assessed in the case reports which documented spontaneous reports only and were not based on systematic inquiry about sexual performance of each patient. Lack of systematic inquiry also prohibited an assessment of which of the aspects of sexual function, desire, erection and ejaculation for men, lubrication for women, and/or orgasm were affected. Following studies targeted these issues.

In 1992, Jacobson and colleagues published a survey of 160 patients who had fulfilled DSM-III-R criteria for major depression and fully responded to treatment with fluoxetine.(16) Over two years during monthly follow-up visits, they asked patients open-ended questions about changes in libido, ability to get/maintain an erection (males only), and orgasm, compared to before the onset of depression. Fifty-four of 160 patients (34%) reported the onset of sexual dysfunction after the successful treatment of depression. Sixteen patients (10% of all fluoxetine-treated patients) reported decreased libido alone, 21 (13%) reported decreased sexual response alone, and 17 (11%) reported both. Sexual dysfunction occurred in all patients within the first two months of therapy, did not decrease throughout treatment, often responded to decreases in the fluoxetine dose, and reversed 1-3 weeks after fluoxetine was discontinued. Following their discovery of fluoxetine’s impact on sexual desire, they enrolled nine of the patients (2 women and 7 men) into an open trial of yohimbine. Yohimbine is believed to act as an aphrodisiac through presynaptic alpha-2-adrenergic blockade. Eight patients reported complete or partial response of their sexual dysfunction, one patient failed to respond.

One may question these results based on the likely unreliability of patients’ recall of sexual functioning prior to the onset of depression and the variability in duration of treatment among study patients at the time of study initiation. However, the author stated that the significantly higher (34%) than previously reported incidence of fluoxetine-associated sexual dysfunction detected in his study is credible for the following reasons: It is consistent with previously reported rates of sexual dysfunction with clomipramine which has significant serotonergic effects; contrary to previous reports, it includes diminished libido as a form of sexual dysfunction; and it is based on repeated questioning of patients about sexual functioning, rather than relying on spontaneous reports.

Since fluoxetine's approval, three more SSRI antidepressants have become available to clinicians and patients in the US. With those, the question of differential adverse sexual effects among the SSRI antidepressants arose. In 1997, Modell and colleagues compared the sexual side effects of fluoxetine, paroxetine, and sertraline and those of the new non-SSRI antidepressant bupropion.(17) Of 320 patients of their outpatient clinic who had been taking one of the study medications for at least one week and met the inclusion criteria, 107 (49 men, 57 women, 1 unspecified; 22 on bupropion; 37 on fluoxetine; 21 on paroxetine; 27 on sertraline) returned a questionnaire about possible medication-induced effects on libido, sexual arousal, duration of time from arousal to orgasm and duration and intensity of orgasm. The questionnaire instructed patients to answer the questions comparing their current sexual experiences with those prior to the onset of symptoms for which they were treated and prior to beginning the medication under study. Similar proportions of patients on the three SSRI experienced one or more adverse sexual effects: 73% of fluoxetine-, 86% of paroxetine-, and 67% of sertraline-treated patients. Differences among the SSRI were not significant. In contrast, 14% of bupropion-treated patients experienced adverse sexual effects. Twenty-seven percent of SSRI-treated patients reported no adverse sexual effects at all, and 77% of bupropion-treated patients reported at least one improvement in sexual functioning. Self-selection into the study of only one third of the invited patients may have resulted in substantial overestimation of the sexual side effects of the SSRI. It should however not be associated with the type of SSRI taken and thus not affect the relative incidence estimates for the three SSRI. The authors concluded that SSRI-induced adverse sexual effects are far more common than initially reported, and that their incidence does not differ among the three SSRI evaluated.

In 1997 also, the first longitudinal studies of the sexual effects of SSRI in depressed patients were published. Zajecka and colleagues followed 22 women and 20 men treated with fluoxetine, sertraline, or paroxetine.(18) They assessed depressive symptoms and various aspects of sexual function at baseline and eight weeks into SSRI treatment with the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale and the Rush Sexual Inventory, respectively. These authors found that 60% of men and 57% of women reported sexual dysfunction associated with SSRI therapy, most commonly difficulties in orgasm. They did not detect differences in sexual dysfunction between those whose depressive symptoms responded to therapy (Hamilton Depression Rating Scale score less than or equal to 8) and those whose symptoms did not respond. Men, but no women, who took paroxetine, reported a greater number and frequency of adverse sexual effects than those taking fluoxetine or sertraline. Using the Rush Sexual Inventory, the authors also found some improvements in sexual functioning, particularly increased desire, among men and women.

Piazza and colleagues assessed twenty-five patients (4 women and 11 men) who were diagnosed with dysthymia, chronic major depression, or double depression, according to DSM-III-R, with the Arizona Sexual Experience Scale and the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale before and six weeks after treatment with sertraline or paroxetine.(19) These authors found differential baseline sexual dysfunction and differential SSRI-associated sexual dysfunction effects for women and men. Women experienced greater baseline sexual dysfunction than men, and their desire and psychological arousal, as well as global sexual functioning, significantly improved with therapy, without change in physiologic arousal, ease of or satisfaction with orgasm. Men experienced significantly worsened delay of and satisfaction with orgasm and global sexual functioning. They suggested that SSRI-associated sexual side effects may be less frequent in women than men or counterbalanced by the beneficial effects of successful depression therapy on sexual functioning in women.

During the past two years, controlled studies of the successful treatment of premature ejaculation contributed another line of evidence for SSRI-associated sexual effects.(20,21) The results from Waldinger’s 1998 study point to differences in delaying ejaculation among the three SSRI tested. Paroxetine and fluoxetine showed an ejaculation-delaying effect, while fluvoxamine did not. Subsequently, animals studies have shown different serotonin receptor-subtype effects of a structurally unrelated SSRI, fluvoxamine, compared to fluoxetine and are now prompting exploration of receptor subtype-effects of the SSRI related to their sexual effects.(22)

According to a recent New York Times report, the number of prescriptions written in the US for psychotherapeutics has increased from 130.7 million in 1988 to 232.6 million in 1997. Fluoxetine contributed 1.45 million prescription to the total in 1988, and 9.88 million in 1997.(23) During this decade, evidence from case reports, cross-sectional surveys, and prospective studies of adverse sexual effects, together with reports of therapies to counteract them, and controlled trials of SSRI's use in the treatment of sexual dysfunctions has accumulated. Although the studies reviewed here have many flaws, and no one incidence estimate is available, this overview suggests that different types of sexual side effects exist, and that they are rather the rule than the exception of SSRI treatment. The high prevalence of depression, and its burden on patients, their families and society require that patients receive treatment they can comply with. Thus, alerting patients to and inquiring about the adverse sexual effects of SSRI, and modifying therapy accordingly should be an indispensable part of care.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 13, 2006 01:56PM
Dirtweed, this is a very sensitive topic, a professional therapist with experience prescribing ssri's could probably help you with this issue better than any one here. Best Wishes. nice to see this thread getting bumped so often.
Re: New Light shed on Jesus and Judas Relationship
April 14, 2006 12:26PM
Interesting Lyrics!

Do you remember Judas Iscariote?
Do you remember Judas Iscariote?

Thirty pieces of silver
He sold Jesus
Thirty pieces of silver
He betrayed Jesus, Jesus Christ

Do you remember Judas Iscariote?
Do you remember Judas Iscariote?

I SAY THAT HE WENT INSANE FOR LOVE
And don't care what they try to tell us
I don't want to know
Dem people try to sell I and I
He hanged himself, couldn't live with his conscience
He had to pay consequences, 'cause it was

Thirty pieces of silver
He sold Jesus
Thirty pieces of silver
He betrayed Jesus, Jesus Christ

Do you remember, do you remember Judas Iscariote?
Do you remember, do you remember Judas Iscariote?

"Judas Iscariote" - Misty in Roots
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